Heavy vs. Light PCC

[Adamj]

I mainly shoot 3 gun and am looking into getting a GMR 15 because it seems like a good time and to get a little more long gun experience in under the clock. Shooting open my KL12 and 18" JP are heavy guns. 

 

For eveyone that has been shooting PCC for a while:

Should I set up my GMR 15 to be heavy like my other guns and use it as a semi-training tool?

Or abandon that idea in favor of treating it as a totally separate activity and go light?

[mtruong]

I actually think getting an MPX would be a better training tool than an AR9 based on the recoil impulse. I run a JP 16" upper for 3 gun with an adjustable gas block, LMOS buffer, and SCS, and it pretty much has no recoil. Jumping between that an a straight blowback AR9 platform (MBX Extreme PCC) was really different; lots more dot bounce and recoil in the PCC platform. I'd have to use a lot more technique to control my PCC than my 3-gun rifle, and it wasn't as direct a carryover. 

 

I now run an MPX Gen 3, and based on the design, the recoil impulse and dot movement are much more similar to my 3-gun competition rifle. The weight is pretty comparable, and my lowers are set up pretty much exactly the same, so picking up one and then the other has an almost identical feel. I generally run 2x4 Tac when able, and really focus on shooting matches rifle/PCC for speed. 

 

Just my $0.02. 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, Adamj said:

I mainly shoot 3 gun and am looking into getting a GMR 15 because it seems like a good time and to get a little more long gun experience in under the clock. Shooting open my KL12 and 18" JP are heavy guns. 

 

For eveyone that has been shooting PCC for a while:

Should I set up my GMR 15 to be heavy like my other guns and use it as a semi-training tool?

Or abandon that idea in favor of treating it as a totally separate activity and go light?

I'd do both. By that I mean set it up so it's very close to your rifle with a similar hand guard, trigger and stock. I'm a huge fan of the new aluminum Ultralight barrel and I honestly wasn't expecting this, but it balances a bit better than my 10.5" SBR. You will also end up with a sick setup for Steel Challenge if you decide to dabble in that game. I gain more from having identical furniture than I gain from weight. My PRS rifle (LRP-07), 3 Gun Rifle (JP-15) and PCC rifles (GMR-15) all feel very, very natural to shoot because they all have similar hand guards, grips, triggers and stocks even though the LRP is over 20 lbs and 1 of the PCC's is ~5 lbs. 

If I were in your shoes I'd spec out a JP GMR-15 with the Ultralight barrel, 5 stainless Short Stroke SCS, same hand guard, same trigger and same stock as my 3 gun rifle and enjoy the heck out of shooting it! 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Darqusoull13
Photo for Reference

[mike4045]

i run a heavy rifle for 3 gun, but went the other way with my pcc. The first was heavy, all others are much lighter. Shooting it on pistol stages i can transition faster with the lighter gun. I did go a little too light on my last gun. Settled in the middle with a 6 pound gun that shoots relatively soft

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: If you are going to shoot the AR9 PCC in USPSA pistol matches go for a light setup. You want the PCC to transition quickly and get back on target quickly. I like the weight a little more on the front end with the balance point just if front of the magwell. Alot more options if you build your own. Thanks, Eric

[MemphisMechanic]

6 pounds of PCC with a light frontend is the way to go, in my opinion. That’s 0.5 - 1.0 pounds lighter than most.

[Smithcity]

Lift lots of weights, eat like an animal, and get huge, then run a 20lb pcc, basically no dot movement.

 

Id stay away from the mpx, 50k rounds and experience with 8 mpxs, only 1 runs reliably, all gen 2s. Unless sig somehow fixed the platform. They seem to run well until you reach 5-6k rounds.

 

[Chris Keen]

That's odd. I've got over 10k through my MPX and it runs like a champ. 

 

Just finished 4th place at the JP Midwest Championship in Indiana last weekend. That says more about thethe MPX than it does me, since I only shoot PCC once or twice a year. Saw lots of other guns have malfs during the 13 stages but not mine. 

 

 

[biggulp]

I built a ~5.5 lb blowback AR, ran it for a season, and loved it.  Decided to switch to the MPX platform for less dot movement, it's about 1 lb heavier, but totally worth it.

 

 

[RAINY0DAYS]

There's definitely a sweet spot with weight. My gun started at 5lbs, and I've settled with it a bit above 6. Very dependent on your setup as well, but I think it's worth going as light as you can before you start sacrificing too much speed and accuracy on doubles.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[Smithcity]

8 hours ago, Chris Keen said:

That's odd. I've got over 10k through my MPX and it runs like a champ. 

 

Just finished 4th place at the JP Midwest Championship in Indiana last weekend. That says more about thethe MPX than it does me, since I only shoot PCC once or twice a year. Saw lots of other guns have malfs during the 13 stages but not mine. 

 

 

Yes, im sure there are mpxs that run, one of the 8 in my sample space runs, im sure there are more that run and more that are malfunction machines. Im glad you are one of the lucky ones, ive put way to much money into mine and sent it back to sig twice and it is still junk.

 

Nice finish at the match!

 

If you want a light pcc and get a hold of an mpx that is reliable, not a bad choice. As for recoil, i was able to tune my JP to be comperable dot movement relative to the mpx. 

[Chris Keen]

Yeah that sounds good too. Nothing against the JP or anything, but I'm not very good at tuning stuff like that and had troubles tuning an out of the box ATI (I know now it's not that great) AR9 so I wanted something a little more "factory set", but still sporty while being reliable too, and landed into the MPX. 

 

But what I meant was there's lots of good ones out there. I think the guy that finished 3rd at this match (James Gaston) was using an MPX. And last year the match was won by none other than Todd Jarrett also using an MPX (he was on my squad), so there's a pretty good following there to tell someone "I'd stay away from the MPX".

 

Any gun can have problems. I saw JPs have problems too. Nobody is immune to that. But I've only ever had problems with mine until "I" did something wrong (forgetting to put new springs in extended base pads) Put new spring from TTI in and it was just like brand new again. 

 

 

[Smithcity]

Keep in mind that manufacturers have an incentive to make sure a top shooters gun runs. Sig could care less that mine doesnt run. Inside the first 3k rounds my bcg separated in half and tore apart my upper, sent it back to sig and they replaced the upper. Months later the bcg was digging grooves into the upper, if the bcg is dragging against the upper, it is losing velocity, in my case the loss in velocity meant rounds werent stripped off the mag. Sent it back to sig, they told me the first time they replaced the upper was "as a courtesy", didnt replace anything the second time and told me grooves being dug into the upper is "normal". Never seen such a thing with any gas operated rifles.

 

If im not mistaken there is a steyr design that has 2 recoil springs like the mpx. There was an issue where the springs didnt necessarily wear at the same rate, over time resulting in unequal force returning the bcg into battery. Wouldnt be surprised if some mpxs meet the same fate.

 

Regardless, if you can get one that runs, it is a nice soft shooting platform. Ive seen my fair share of mpxs that didnt run in bigger matches, seen several that do as well. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Smithcity

[Darqusoull13]

18 hours ago, Chris Keen said:

Yeah that sounds good too. Nothing against the JP or anything, but I'm not very good at tuning stuff like that and had troubles tuning an out of the box ATI (I know now it's not that great) AR9 so I wanted something a little more "factory set", but still sporty while being reliable too, and landed into the MPX. 

 

But what I meant was there's lots of good ones out there. I think the guy that finished 3rd at this match (James Gaston) was using an MPX. And last year the match was won by none other than Todd Jarrett also using an MPX (he was on my squad), so there's a pretty good following there to tell someone "I'd stay away from the MPX".

 

Any gun can have problems. I saw JPs have problems too. Nobody is immune to that. But I've only ever had problems with mine until "I" did something wrong (forgetting to put new springs in extended base pads) Put new spring from TTI in and it was just like brand new again. 

 

 

One of my JP GMRs is over 100,000 rounds of random ammo from anyone wanting to shoot it during or after a match. My guns have even been loaned to shooters whose primary went down at a match. They have filled in for several other PCCs but never another JP. 

 

4 GMRs into my PCC journey and many shooters have developed a lot of trust in my rifles. If you want reliable for as long as you own the rifle, the answer is JP. 

[mtruong]

I love my JP rifle, and think their products are amazing, but the MPX Gen 3 is still a better platform. Ask guys like Keith Garcia or Zack Smith what they think about the platforms. 

[Adamj]

I feel like this thread got away from me a little bit. 

 

Does anyone with a GMR-15 have opinions on how to configure them? Does felt recoil or handling play into your decision?         

-Heavy vs. Light Overall Build

-Short Barrel vs. Longer

-Heavy Tungsten SCS vs. Steel Inserts

[Jeremyc_1999]

I prefer light for my PCC. I’m running an AR9 Gibbz lower with a taccom ulw upper. I have an upper that more closely duplicates my AR15 but After shooting it I feel like it is a totally different animal and if I want a “trainer “ for the ar 15 I should just shoot the ar 15

[TRUBL]

From running years of Ruger Rimfire, steel challenge, USPSA and 3 gun........I've found this may not be a super simple question to answer. A few things we've developed for the sports however shows winning promise.

 

Ruger Rimfire/Steel Challenge: HE who has the lightest front end, swings the fastest......we opted for barrels that weigh under 1 pound and carbon fiber hand guards in the less than 6 ounce area. When we were heavy into the ruger rimfire.....our 13 ounce carbon fiber tension barrel reigned supreme. Now.....our 16" UWL barrel that is hands down the lightest and original (14 ounces) for 9mm has been the standard for the steel game. my present set up for steel challenge is right at 5# for 9mm PCC....and it balances right about at the trigger guard.

 

USPSA PCC.......I personally still like the UWL barrel and CF HG.....brings the Center of mass in closer to me and swing is still fast, I've gone to LUTH-AR stocks....a little heavier and seem to mitigate recoil nicer as I can pull the line of bore in close to my chest. My main gun is just under 6#, and another is just over 8#......I like both run both fine, but the lighter one seems to do better with classifiers. Both firearms balance at just behind the magwell. Another good choice is a 14.5" barrel with a pinned and welded brake......still a light barrel at 1.3 pounds and brings the center of the rifle right to the magwell. I also have a 40SW PCC with an 8" barrel/shrouded to 16" that shows promise.....it comes in at 6.1 pounds and balances at the back end of the magwell.

 

3gun......well, this gets more into 223 and I have been playing with guns that run in that 7# range that balance right at the mag well.....great for hosing and still more than stable for the long distance shots......keep in mind as a rule, you are shooting supported at long distance for the most part and this is why I went with a lighter configuration.