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9mm 1911, is it ok for idpa?

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Thinking about getting into idpa with a 9mm 1911, and wanted to know if that's a good choice? Thanks for your help, Dave.

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Mike Seeklander won Nationals last year in ESP and the whole match with one.


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Mike Seeklander could probably win using a High Point!  (High Points actually shoot pretty well for what they are...!)  

 

IDPA was originally designed for shooting your carry gun in competition.  Use the pistol you are most comfortable with now. 

 

If you plan to buy a pistol specifically for IDPA, I would advise against it if you are just starting out.  Shoot what you have now, until you get a few matches behind you, at least.  There is a class for just about ALL types of pistols, so what you have now will most likely qualify for one of them.  

 

Granted, there will probably be better choices than your current carry gun for competition, but I guarantee you will gain skills with your carry gun by shooting IDPA. 

 

Plus, after you have shot in a few matches, you will have a better idea of what direction you want to go, if you still want to buy a gun especially for competition.  

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Bret's comments above pretty much nails it. Also, since the most recent rulebook changes, I can't guarantee this to still be 100% accurate. But the trade-off of 9 mm versus 45 ACP is simply capacity versus power factor, 9mm is loaded to 9 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command, whereas 45 ACP is loaded to 7 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command. Also, 9mm is minor power factor and 45 ACP is major power factor. Qualitatively, 9mm can be operated faster due to less recoil, but requires more accuracy, whereas 45 ACP has greater recoil but scores higher at major PF. A rough rule of thumb comparison I typically used when shooting IDPA, is a target scoring two Alpha's using 9 mm (minor PF) is roughly equivalent to 45 ACP scoring one Alpha and one Bravo at major PF.

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In IDPA 9mm 1911’s are in ESP and 45’s are in CDP (though 45’s can also shoot in ESP but are at a disadvantage due to scoring being identical for 45 or 9mm in ESP since it is scored by time/seconds added).

USPSA has hit factors and scoring is different for major and minor calibers competing in Single Stack.


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yeh just read the ESP rules, make sure it is compliant. While the gun is a great platform , perfect actually for IDPA ESP, few things could make it not legal.  Like 5" bull barrel, vs bushing. ( unless rules have changed)
As you get advanced a bit you will figure out your gun will allow you to be a 9+1 shooter. 

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10 round 9mm 1911 magazines are commonly used in IDPA, so you get 10 + 1 in the chamber to start. 

 

Coincidentally (or not), that is the ESP Division standard capacity to start.  

 

Not all 10 rnd. 9mm 1911 mags are equal though.  I prefer either Wilson or Dawson Precision.  

 

I reiterate my recommendation to the OP to start IDPA with the pistol he has now, and is most familiar with...  

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I totally agree with Ken6, shoot what you have first. At the two local IDPA clubs I shoot, some of the guys shoot their EDC guns. They have to unload when they first arrive and then they load back up when the match is complete. I’ve shot revolver, SSP, CO, CCP so far and will shoot BUG in an upcoming event. I really enjoy revolver the most, and wouldn’t have ever guessed that before I shot the first match ( I shot an M&P in SSP in my first match).


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Answer to OQ:  The 9mm 1911 is just about perfect for IDPA.  It falls in the ESP Division which I think was originally written to give obsolete single stack .38 raceguns a home, once shorn of comps and scopes. 

 

The guys are right, if you have a 9mm 1911oid, shoot it.  If you have Something Else reasonably suitable, shoot THAT until you are sure you like IDPA well enough to buy a match gun. 

 

"Division Capacity" is 10+1.  You can usually find a 10x9mm magazine that works.  It has been a while since I heard that "9+1 is better because you can double tap five targets and reload on the transition to the sixth."  That calls for an unimaginative MD and perfect accuracy.   

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Make sure whatever magwell/ambi safety you put on it fits the box, but shouldnt be a problem. 

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7 hours ago, Ken6PPC said:

10 round 9mm 1911 magazines are commonly used in IDPA, so you get 10 + 1 in the chamber to start. 

 

Coincidentally (or not), that is the ESP Division standard capacity to start.  

 

Not all 10 rnd. 9mm 1911 mags are equal though.  I prefer either Wilson or Dawson Precision.  

 

I reiterate my recommendation to the OP to start IDPA with the pistol he has now, and is most familiar with...  

Metalform makes the CMC Mags and I've had good luck with them at a cheaper price.

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Strange, Wilson now owns CMC. 

How many sets of magazine tooling are there?

 

I have some early Metalform 10x9 and they are not up to CMC XP or Tripp, probably not as good as Wilson ETM-2 or CMC/WC Range Pro.  

Maybe they have improved, everybody likes Dawson and they sure look like MF with aluminum bases. 

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12 hours ago, Ken6PPC said:

10 round 9mm 1911 magazines are commonly used in IDPA, so you get 10 + 1 in the chamber to start. 

 

Coincidentally (or not), that is the ESP Division standard capacity to start.  

 

Not all 10 rnd. 9mm 1911 mags are equal though.  I prefer either Wilson or Dawson Precision.  

 

I reiterate my recommendation to the OP to start IDPA with the pistol he has now, and is most familiar with...  

Factory standard for many 1911 9's is 9 + 1,,,   yep you can get 10 round mags,, most of em work like doo doo,, but yeh you can get them. And Yep,, it is ESP MAX capacity,, not standard but MAX,, if gun is standard with 9, no reason you cant use 9's.
IDPA tends to very often be a 12 round game... 9+1 is often an advantage,, and almost NEVER a disadvantage.
Legal IDPA stages difference between 9 and 10.
1-10 round stage neutral
11 neutral,
12 advantage 9+1. BIGTIME
13-18 neutral.
MD's love 12 round stages,,, just count em,, works because 6,7,8, 9 and 11 round max guns have to reload once, but only once... Unless things have changed drastically you are better off with a 9 +1 gun verry often and almost NEVER penalized.
think about it,,,, 2 ,2,2,2,2,,, slide lock reload, 2 double tap on last target.
Vs 2,2,2,2,2 , 1 on last, slide lock 1 on same target you already transitioned too, OR 2,2 2,,,, somewhere a slower tac reload,,, yadda yadda..
Yeh shoot IDPA enough, you wll figure out 9+1 is faster

 

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On 5/27/2019 at 9:26 PM, JonDKush said:

Bret's comments above pretty much nails it. Also, since the most recent rulebook changes, I can't guarantee this to still be 100% accurate. But the trade-off of 9 mm versus 45 ACP is simply capacity versus power factor, 9mm is loaded to 9 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command, whereas 45 ACP is loaded to 7 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command. Also, 9mm is minor power factor and 45 ACP is major power factor. Qualitatively, 9mm can be operated faster due to less recoil, but requires more accuracy, whereas 45 ACP has greater recoil but scores higher at major PF. A rough rule of thumb comparison I typically used when shooting IDPA, is a target scoring two Alpha's using 9 mm (minor PF) is roughly equivalent to 45 ACP scoring one Alpha and one Bravo at major PF.

 

IDPA scores differently for minor and major power factors?

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2 hours ago, funkymonkey1111 said:

 

IDPA scores differently for minor and major power factors?

Not unless they have changed their scoring rules in the past few days!

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On 5/28/2019 at 7:07 PM, racknrider said:

If you’re thinking 1911, don’t overlook a 2011 like this. 

yes, a double stack 1911 (ie, a 2011) with a bushing barrel is generally legal in idpa, and the benefit is that it is an excellent gun for 2 & 3 gun where you want that double stack mag capacity.

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On 5/27/2019 at 11:26 PM, JonDKush said:

Bret's comments above pretty much nails it. Also, since the most recent rulebook changes, I can't guarantee this to still be 100% accurate. But the trade-off of 9 mm versus 45 ACP is simply capacity versus power factor, 9mm is loaded to 9 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command, whereas 45 ACP is loaded to 7 cartidges in the magazine and 1 in the chamber upon the "load and make ready" command. Also, 9mm is minor power factor and 45 ACP is major power factor. Qualitatively, 9mm can be operated faster due to less recoil, but requires more accuracy, whereas 45 ACP has greater recoil but scores higher at major PF. A rough rule of thumb comparison I typically used when shooting IDPA, is a target scoring two Alpha's using 9 mm (minor PF) is roughly equivalent to 45 ACP scoring one Alpha and one Bravo at major PF.

This makes no sense whatsoever,, there is no major minor scoring.. ESP is ESP,, CDP is CDP with its own rule set.
The 7 or 8 + 1 vs 9 to 10 +1, is completely irrelevant the guns are in completely separate divisions.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2019 at 8:57 PM, Joe4d said:

Factory standard for many 1911 9's is 9 + 1,,,   yep you can get 10 round mags,, most of em work like doo doo,, but yeh you can get them. And Yep,, it is ESP MAX capacity,, not standard but MAX,, if gun is standard with 9, no reason you cant use 9's.
IDPA tends to very often be a 12 round game... 9+1 is often an advantage,, and almost NEVER a disadvantage.
Legal IDPA stages difference between 9 and 10.
1-10 round stage neutral
11 neutral,
12 advantage 9+1. BIGTIME
13-18 neutral.
MD's love 12 round stages,,, just count em,, works because 6,7,8, 9 and 11 round max guns have to reload once, but only once... Unless things have changed drastically you are better off with a 9 +1 gun verry often and almost NEVER penalized.
think about it,,,, 2 ,2,2,2,2,,, slide lock reload, 2 double tap on last target.
Vs 2,2,2,2,2 , 1 on last, slide lock 1 on same target you already transitioned too, OR 2,2 2,,,, somewhere a slower tac reload,,, yadda yadda..
Yeh shoot IDPA enough, you wll figure out 9+1 is faster

 

 

SO, less ammo in the mag is faster?  OK, if you say so... 

 

 

Edited by Ken6PPC
Not worth it...

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Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate all the info. Now I have to decide which 1911 I want.

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On an 11 round stage a shooter with 9+1 must reload for round 11. Shooter with 10+1, no reload. How is that neutral?

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yep my mistake on that one, however in the years I shot IDPA I dont think I ever saw an 11 round stage.
Also last year I shot it, I think nationals had about 75% 12 round stages.
And yes less ammo is usually faster, and almost never a disadvantage, other than that almost never 11 round stage.
You save the time of presenting twice on the same target, or the time difference of a tac reload, vs slide lock.
2,2,2,2,2 SLR, 2  is faster than 2,2,2,2,2 1 SLR 1 on same target. Or 2,2,2,2, Tac reload, 2,2.
Although,, seems like rules may have changed allowing moving reloads, so that advantage may be smaller today.
Point being, 9+1 is often an advantage, rarely if ever a disadvantage. 

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2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

yep my mistake on that one, however in the years I shot IDPA I dont think I ever saw an 11 round stage.
Also last year I shot it, I think nationals had about 75% 12 round stages.
And yes less ammo is usually faster, and almost never a disadvantage, other than that almost never 11 round stage.
You save the time of presenting twice on the same target, or the time difference of a tac reload, vs slide lock.
2,2,2,2,2 SLR, 2  is faster than 2,2,2,2,2 1 SLR 1 on same target. Or 2,2,2,2, Tac reload, 2,2.
Although,, seems like rules may have changed allowing moving reloads, so that advantage may be smaller today.
Point being, 9+1 is often an advantage, rarely if ever a disadvantage. 

You can round dump now so there may well be a target that "needs" three, instead of just 2, so you can make your SLR happen at a more beneficial time.   Even so I've considered running 9+1 at quite a few matches lately for many of the same reasons already stated.

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Posted (edited)

I have read the 9+1 strategy for a long time.  I think it is only an advantage if the MD is unimaginative and the shooter is very accurate.  One piece of steel, a three best CoF, or one pulled shot and that "five double taps and reload on the transition to the next target" approach is out the window. 

I DO shoot a bit of 9+1, though.  I wanted to keep using my .45 without getting my arthritis kicked into a flinch, so I went to midrange loads at Minor.  A couple of us worked on 9 round .45 single stack magazines that would fit The Box and off we went.

 

 The 12 shot stage seems not as common as it used to be.  But I remember when we had an AC that would not approve an 11 shot stage because some would have to reload and some would not.   

Edited by Jim Watson

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