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Barcode1337

Pistols with Magazines in Front of Trigger

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In the Open forum, there was a thread about the technology, if it's peaked/plateaued, and what may be next. So purely from a curiosity standpoint, I was wondering if it was legal to shoot pistols with magazines forward the trigger in Open division. Something like the PAK9, SA VZ 61 Scorpion, or other similar shorty pistol caliber things.

 

The only prohibiting rule I can find in my perusal is 5.1.10, which prohibits stocks or foregrips of any kind. Seems to me that would suggest you only need to make sure you hold it like a traditional pistol, and not grasp forward the magazine or use the magazine as a foregrip. 

 

I tried searching a little and came up with nothing. Besides Desert Eagles and 500 S&W revolvers or whatever, I don't see evidence of too many odd firearms used in USPSA. Must be because folks are much more concerned about being competitive.

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Posted (edited)

Because it's a competition, not an organized fun shoot. 

Edited by rowdyb

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The main setback I can think of would be holsters. An AR pistol (9mm) would be legal, but I imagine legal holsters are few and far between. 

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There is no rule prohibiting it. Like HCH says you could use a braced PCC in a holster and still comply with the rules.

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8 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Because it's a competition, not an organized fun shoot. 

 

Figured that was the main cause. While I take the sport seriously and try to do my best, especially due to the limited number of matches near me, I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. 

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44 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

  I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. 

 

Guess that's why I like to shoot USPSA - kind of ABSURD for

a 74 year old, deaf, fat guy with two left hands to compete

at all.     :surprise:

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You could rock a 96 mauser

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I understand. Everyone has their own definition of fun at the match and I'm glad there is more than one way to fulfill it.

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2 hours ago, RJH said:

You could rock a 96 mauser

 

Early days, I saw a gunzine article with pictures of the guns in use.  One was a C96 with the "broom handle" wrapped in bandage and tape. 

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3 hours ago, RJH said:

You could rock a 96 mauser

 

I would love to get my hands on a 96 mauser. I get my fill of absurd at our club's IDPA matches/side matches. I've run my 303 Enfield during the rifle side matches a few times. When I finish building my PPS43 and Sten I may run them in PCC as well. As I said, I try to take USPSA more seriously, not that I'm any good.

 

Since NickBlasta suggests braces are legal - have people experimented with braces on pistols in USPSA? Again, find it hard to imagine it would provide any meaningful, if any, gains in performance.

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4 hours ago, Barcode1337 said:

 

Figured that was the main cause. While I take the sport seriously and try to do my best, especially due to the limited number of matches near me, I've always had a penchant for the absurd in competitions. 

You should just shoot revolver then.

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Since NickBlasta suggests braces are legal - have people experimented with braces on pistols in USPSA? Again, find it hard to imagine it would provide any meaningful, if any, gains in performance.


I don't see where braces are legal.

They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock.

They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant
thereof is not allowed"

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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

You should just shoot revolver then.

This is the comment of the day. Gave me a good chuckle. :lol:

 

I wish we could run pistol braces. A 10 or 12" PCC would be awesome. Especially in steel challenge. But I see the reasons why they are not allowed. 

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27 minutes ago, ezra650 said:

This is the comment of the day. Gave me a good chuckle. :lol:

 

I wish we could run pistol braces. A 10 or 12" PCC would be awesome. Especially in steel challenge. But I see the reasons why they are not allowed. 

you can have a 10 or 12" PCC  it just has to be a rifle not a pistol

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3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

you can have a 10 or 12" PCC  it just has to be a rifle not a pistol

Yeah, but screw the NFA. 

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1 hour ago, PatJones said:


 

 


I don't see where braces are legal.

They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock.

They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant
thereof is not allowed"

 

 

I’m gonna say a brace IS legal. I would allow venture to say the reason they are not allowed in PCC is twofold: 1. ATF is wishy-washy on the subject. 2. PCC is carbine not “braced AR Pistol”

 

splitting hairs based on technicalities, I know, but that is my opinion. 

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5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

You should just shoot revolver then.

or single stack

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2 hours ago, PatJones said:


 

 


I don't see where braces are legal.

They are banned in all the handgun divisions. 5.1.10 reads: "Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited." Regardless of ATF classification, they are a kind of stock.

They're not allowed in PCC, Appendix 8 specifies: " Sig Brace and any variant
thereof is not allowed"

 

 

They aren't a stock. That's why they are a brace and not a stock for the PCC gear rules. 😄

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5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

You should just shoot revolver then.

 

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

or single stack

 

After I accomplish something in Open and/or acquire firearms for those divisions, I would totally shoot both.

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1 hour ago, HCH said:

 

I’m gonna say a brace IS legal. I would allow venture to say the reason they are not allowed in PCC is twofold: 1. ATF is wishy-washy on the subject. 2. PCC is carbine not “braced AR Pistol”

 

splitting hairs based on technicalities, I know, but that is my opinion. 

 

That was my interpretation on that bit as well. Really, interpretation could be pretty broad for both the stock and foregrip phrasing. I was pretty intrigued that braces weren't explicitly banned in the rules. Having never used one as an actual arm brace, though, I have no idea if they actually do anything.

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Interesting thought project.  9mm major AR pistol with brace and maybe use a magwell grip if you can get by with the magwell not getting defined as a foregrip.  In CA, vertical fore grips on a semi-auto rifle turns it into a banned assault weapon  and magwells are not considered vertical foregrips in CA.  So maybe a magwell grip would be legal for OPEN.

 

If you got by the holster issue, a 9mm major blowback "pistol" probably wouldn't  last long and I heard 9 major in PCC's aren't fun to shoot anyway.

 

That leaves you with a 9mm minor blowback "pistol" in a holster.  It's better to stick with PCC.

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7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

You should just shoot revolver then.

👍:goof:

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With the 2011 platform capacity is controlled by the length of the magazine and the dimensions of the grip.  If a magazine external of the grip is allowed, either in front of the trigger guard, or along the top like the P90, the length stays the same but width dimension could increase.  A magazine like the SureFire AR mag or the old Spectre SMG would be possible.  For that matter, a simple drum would likely make length.  There are legit reasons why this could be an option.  That said, the weight of existing systems would likely be more detrimental than the ability to skip a reload or two per match.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, gdboytyler said:

Interesting thought project.  9mm major AR pistol with brace and maybe use a magwell grip if you can get by with the magwell not getting defined as a foregrip.  In CA, vertical fore grips on a semi-auto rifle turns it into a banned assault weapon  and magwells are not considered vertical foregrips in CA.  So maybe a magwell grip would be legal for OPEN.

 

If you got by the holster issue, a 9mm major blowback "pistol" probably wouldn't  last long and I heard 9 major in PCC's aren't fun to shoot anyway.

 

That leaves you with a 9mm minor blowback "pistol" in a holster.  It's better to stick with PCC.

 

You could shoot Limited with a .40 upper with irons on it.

 

A handguard or magwell is not a foregrip. A foregrip is a foregrip.

Edited by NickBlasta

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The fact a brace isn't considered a 'stock' by ATF doesn't mean your local RM won't decide that 'of any kind' language applies to your brace as well, declare it one and there you are in the parking lot with nowhere to shoot.

 

Quote

5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited.

 

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