Accuracy with handguns, most important factors

[BobT]

39 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

IFF the gun/ammo is NOT the problem (or, at least, a part of the problem).

Very true, Sir...very true. 

 

I should have said, have a known good shooter shoot your gun, just to confirm whether or not the gun/ammo is the issue.

 

[xdf3]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

1 Go buy a 22 pistol and

2 start shooting at rocks on the back of the berm, sometimes the instant feed back seems to help a lot.  Adjust your sights for a 6 o'clock hold for this

3 Make sure your focus is on your front sight and the target is blurry, not the other way around

4 I saw your video, to me, you laser/hold/trigger pull looks pretty good

 

That is about all i got for you.  But, i do think the 22 would help you and that is something i normally don't recommend,  But, in this case the lack of recoil, and the feed back from the dirt splash and  rock/can jumping could IMO help quite a bit.  Good luck

 

Can you please explain why that would help? I want to understand what you think is the issue and how that could solve it.

 

I'm sure I'm already focusing on the front sight, the target is blurry, and I'm not anticipating recoil. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

 

Can you please explain why that would help? I want to understand what you think is the issue and how that could solve it.

 

 

I think the instant feed back would be what would help.  Learning where/when to break the shot, and knowing where that shot went now, instead of shooting 5 or 10 shots and having some be good and some be bad, but not knowing what you did when you shot the good ones vs the bad ones.

 

Your video makes it look like your hold and trigger control and such is ok, so i think at distance the coarser sight alignment is probably the issue and you might be holding out for perfect and your eyes and arms getting tired  instead of accepting good enough, and making a shot.  I have shot bullseye pistol and highpower rifle, ect., and can tell you every shot needs to be its own separate event for the best groups, and that there is a very finite amount of time that you can concentrate before your eyes will lose  a bit of focus and screw your groups up. Generally just a a few seconds.  After you figure out what it takes to hit at distance it is not real difficult to speed it up for USPSA

[Blackstone45]

As others have said, that amount of movement on target is normal. You say there is no problem with your trigger pull and sight alignment. But you only know that to be the case in dry fire. In live fire, the target seems to be telling a different story. I've seen many people claim they're not flinching or jerking the trigger, and it's only when I load their magazines with a mixture of snap caps and live rounds, that they can see what's happening for themselves. I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening in your case, but at this stage, you need to find someone who can help you in person.

[BobT]

2 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

...but at this stage, you need to find someone who can help you in person.

Exactly.....

[Guy Neill]

Have you tried having a dummy round somewhere in the magazine while shooting to see what happens when you reach the dummy?  Best to have the magazine loaded by someone else so that you don't know when you will encounter the dummy.

 

It also crosses my mind that you might try setting a target at ten yards (or maybe seven) and fire five shots at the "B" zone - first as you normally would.  Then after evaluating the hits, fire five where, afte4r each shot, you lower the gun and count to ten before firing the next shot.  See how the hits compare to the first.

 

Perhaps repeat the above, but with a dummy round somewhere in the magazine.  Maybe you could film the exercise.

 

 

[xdf3]

12 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

Have you tried having a dummy round somewhere in the magazine while shooting to see what happens when you reach the dummy?  Best to have the magazine loaded by someone else so that you don't know when you will encounter the dummy.

 

It also crosses my mind that you might try setting a target at ten yards (or maybe seven) and fire five shots at the "B" zone - first as you normally would.  Then after evaluating the hits, fire five where, afte4r each shot, you lower the gun and count to ten before firing the next shot.  See how the hits compare to the first.

 

Perhaps repeat the above, but with a dummy round somewhere in the magazine.  Maybe you could film the exercise.

 

 

I know what would happen with a dummy round 'cause I know what happens when a primer doesn't work. You'll see the gun going down at a very fast rate, and that's not recoil anticipation. I can tell because if I ever shoot like that, I would shoot 1 yard below the target. The fact is, even if I did that, the group would be all below the target, at 6'o clock, not spread around. 

 

I've tried doing what you suggest but it didn't change the group, at least not noticeably

[xdf3]

17 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I think the instant feed back would be what would help.  Learning where/when to break the shot, and knowing where that shot went now, instead of shooting 5 or 10 shots and having some be good and some be bad, but not knowing what you did when you shot the good ones vs the bad ones.

 

Your video makes it look like your hold and trigger control and such is ok, so i think at distance the coarser sight alignment is probably the issue and you might be holding out for perfect and your eyes and arms getting tired  instead of accepting good enough, and making a shot.  I have shot bullseye pistol and highpower rifle, ect., and can tell you every shot needs to be its own separate event for the best groups, and that there is a very finite amount of time that you can concentrate before your eyes will lose  a bit of focus and screw your groups up. Generally just a a few seconds.  After you figure out what it takes to hit at distance it is not real difficult to speed it up for USPSA

If that's the point, I think it would be similar to shooting at a plate at about 10 yards. I can see where the hit goes and if I hit it instantly. I'm not that new to the game, but I'm having a hard time finding why I'm not accurate compared to most new shooters which dedicate much less practice or analysis. 

 

I think at this point it's either sight alignment or the "natural" shaking that is a bit too much. I don't wait for so long to shoot, and I don't think my trigger pull would get so much worse to cause the miss. 

 

BTW : My actual accuracy can be almost fine for most IPSC matches I'm shooting at, but I'm not fine with it, and I know it's an issue to be solved. 

 

@Blackstone45my instructor says I'm not jerking the trigger when I shoot. When I go too fast maybe I do but it's more about sights alignment, especially at few yards, or bad grip for double taps. At average distances, like 15 yards, I have the most A's. He said I shouldn't worry about the shaking but he didn't see how much that is. He suggested me not to work on muscles or I could get slower, but I'm not sure about that yet. Most top shooters I see have very strong arms and big hands. I don't know about bullseye shooting 

[MixLord]

Have you tried..

Just sitting on the couch, watching something you really like.. and , of course prepare the area and weapon for safe manipulation.. then, just watch your show/movie.. and while doing that, just rack and squeeze/push trigger back.. do this as frequently as you can.. going faster and faster. After a week of this, 1 hour minimum a day, you wont be thinking about the trigger.. just bring gun to eye quickly with great intention and push out, as soon as the front dot gets between your eyes path to target, fire.. do bill drills after you spend a week with the mental training.. you might be suprised.. could just be mental..

Dont look at the gun while watching the movie.. just rack, fire.. faster and faster.. it works

Edited June 6, 2019 by MixLord
Touching up

[xdf3]

44 minutes ago, MixLord said:

Have you tried..

Just sitting on the couch, watching something you really like.. and , of course prepare the area and weapon for safe manipulation.. then, just watch your show/movie.. and while doing that, just rack and squeeze/push trigger back.. do this as frequently as you can.. going faster and faster. After a week of this, 1 hour minimum a day, you wont be thinking about the trigger.. just bring gun to eye quickly with great intention and push out, as soon as the front dot gets between your eyes path to target, fire.. do bill drills after you spend a week with the mental training.. you might be suprised.. could just be mental..

Dont look at the gun while watching the movie.. just rack, fire.. faster and faster.. it works

I don't think that's what I need at the moment, but I don't know if you've read the recent discussion so it can be helpful for anybody reading

[Blackstone45]

2 hours ago, MixLord said:

Have you tried..

Just sitting on the couch, watching something you really like.. and , of course prepare the area and weapon for safe manipulation.. then, just watch your show/movie.. and while doing that, just rack and squeeze/push trigger back.. do this as frequently as you can.. going faster and faster. After a week of this, 1 hour minimum a day, you wont be thinking about the trigger.. just bring gun to eye quickly with great intention and push out, as soon as the front dot gets between your eyes path to target, fire.. do bill drills after you spend a week with the mental training.. you might be suprised.. could just be mental..

Dont look at the gun while watching the movie.. just rack, fire.. faster and faster.. it works

With respect, I think this is bad advice. Dry firing should be deliberate practice without distractions. Contrary to popular belief, repeatedly performing the same action doesn't necessarily mean you get good at it. How do you know you're actually squeezing the trigger correctly? You could end up ingraining a bad trigger pull instead.

[MixLord]

It was an idea from Rob Latham.. and also JJ Racazza.

The idea is, to not think about pulling the trigger  .  We shouldn't think about it unless we're doing bullseye.. im not saying use poor trigger control. Start slow, work faster. Your either pushing it left, yanking or pushing straight back.

I'm sure you guys are better than me, thanks for the feedback..

Edited June 6, 2019 by MixLord

[xdf3]

4 minutes ago, MixLord said:

It was an idea from Rob Latham.. and also JJ Racazza.

The idea is to not think about pulling the trigger  .  We shouldn't think about it unless we're doing bullseye.. im not saying use poor trigger control. Start slow, work faster. Your either pushing it left, yanking or pushing straight back.

I'm sure you guys are better than me, thanks for the feesback..

As I stated earlier I think the trigger pull is not the issue. Or I would see a sort of pattern in the target. There is no pattern like the typical low left shots. 

[MikeBurgess]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:10 AM, xdf3 said:

Check this video I've just made. Even when I haven't put so much effort on trigger pull, you can see it's maybe a 5% of the movement. 

 

8 yards, I used  a standard IPSC plate target, that probably is about 8"

 

If that's what happens at 8 yards, try guessing what you would see at 32.

 

 

That dot movement looks just about like what I see with my open gun. it spends lots of time in the center of the plate, no its never still but that just doesn't happen there are several second long instances where the dot is quite still.  if that is a 8" at 8 yards the time spent still in the center of the plate would easily be enough to shoot As at 50 if the trigger is pressed without disturbing the gun.

 

 

One thing that is quite a common cause of bad accuracy especially at range is just aiming at the target and not aiming as a defined spot on the target (normally the center of the A zone but that can vary due to no-shoots and hard cover) I pointed this out to a friend at practice last weekend and his hits on 25yard USPSA targets went from iffy to mostly As almost instantly. every shot needs to be aimed at a spot on a target and you need to intend to shoot that spot, I know it sounds silly but give it a try. 

[Blackstone45]

1 hour ago, MixLord said:

It was an idea from Rob Latham.. and also JJ Racazza.

The idea is, to not think about pulling the trigger  .  We shouldn't think about it unless we're doing bullseye.. im not saying use poor trigger control. Start slow, work faster. Your either pushing it left, yanking or pushing straight back.

I'm sure you guys are better than me, thanks for the feedback..

Perhaps it's aimed at people who already know what a good trigger pull feels like

[xdf3]

5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

That dot movement looks just about like what I see with my open gun. it spends lots of time in the center of the plate, no its never still but that just doesn't happen there are several second long instances where the dot is quite still.  if that is a 8" at 8 yards the time spent still in the center of the plate would easily be enough to shoot As at 50 if the trigger is pressed without disturbing the gun.

 

 

One thing that is quite a common cause of bad accuracy especially at range is just aiming at the target and not aiming as a defined spot on the target (normally the center of the A zone but that can vary due to no-shoots and hard cover) I pointed this out to a friend at practice last weekend and his hits on 25yard USPSA targets went from iffy to mostly As almost instantly. every shot needs to be aimed at a spot on a target and you need to intend to shoot that spot, I know it sounds silly but give it a try. 

When I miss at shorter distances most of the times it's caused by bad sights alignment, and I'm talking about IPSC stages, nothing like standing still.

 

I tried again today, at the end of the training, aiming at a popper (not the big ones. I think the biggest part was about 8"). I missed it 3 times out of 16-17 rounds, at 50 yards. 

 

I didn't always hit it at the center like a plate. The misses were around the target, maybe in a 5-10" radius around it. I didn't stop after each shot, I didn't take more than 1-2 seconds for each shot. I think trigger pull wasn't the issue, again

 

What I can remind of, when I couldn't hit the plate at about 30 yards, is that there was much less light. However, I can't explain it, I wasn't tired like I was at the end of this day after some stages done.

Edited June 6, 2019 by xdf3

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

When I miss at shorter distances most of the times it's caused by bad sights alignment, and I'm talking about IPSC stages, nothing like standing still.

 

I tried again today, at the end of the training, aiming at a popper (not the big ones. I think the biggest part was about 8"). I missed it 3 times out of 16-17 rounds, at 50 yards. 

 

I didn't always hit it at the center like a plate. The misses were around the target, maybe in a 5-10" radius around it. I didn't stop after each shot, I didn't take more than 1-2 seconds for each shot. I think trigger pull wasn't the issue, again

 

What I can remind of, when I couldn't hit the plate at about 30 yards, is that there was much less light. However, I can't explain it, I wasn't tired like I was at the end of this day after some stages done.

3 misses out of 16 shots on a mini popper at 50yd is pretty darn good.  

 

I have found that I do way better with accuracy at distance the brighter it is, I know when its bright out your pupils contract giving you much better depth of focus (in the same way a pin hole camera works without a lens)  this allows you to see the target more clearly if you are focusing on the front sight  (or the sighs more clearly if you are target focused)  I have also found that I am more accurate now with target focus than sight focus.