Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
xdf3

Accuracy with handguns, most important factors

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Embrace the wobble, nobody has sights that sit still on a target, also remember if you can hold the sights on target 90% of the time you will hit the target 90% of the time with a good trigger press.  you also only need to stay on target for a reasonably short amount of time, like if you stand there for a minute you will have more wobble than if you are just trying to hold on target for a half second. Get your sights to the target then spend more energy (mental or otherwise)  holding stiller for a fraction of a second while pressing the trigger, over time you will be able to anticipate when your sights will arrive at the target and  the fraction of time you need to stay there will get smaller and smaller.

 

What I found difficult was standing still even for a fraction of a second. That's what made me realize I have a limit to overcome (via work). I'll check again, but I think my trigger pull is moving like 5% of the entire movement. Plus, let's say ammo isn't as accurate as one would want it to be, and here's the why I get that kind of group.

 

All of this is for IPSC, but if I can't even shoot by standing still, there's a problem (at least for now). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its always a work in progress, my main point is that the wobble you see is what it is till you improve it, many shooters try to compensate for it by trying to get a shot off when the sights happen to slide past the middle of the target and this often leads to a bad trigger press. If you can accept the wobble and not try to catch a good shot on the way by you will normally have better success over all. That is not to say don't work to reduce the wobble, do that for sure, just in the present accept it 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2019 at 1:07 PM, Blackstone45 said:

Sight alignment and trigger pull are the most important.

If by "trigger pull" you include not moving the gun during it, then I agree.

 

Newer shooters who haven't gotten much into speed AND accuracy yet still labor under the idea that they have to WAIT until they see that perfect sight picture.  Once they get that beautiful sight picture, they move the gun as they press the trigger, often because they haven't worked through their tendency to flinch yet.

 

Meanwhile the shooters with more experience have let off three shots into the target's center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2019 at 9:09 PM, Guy Neill said:

A long, long time ago, in a galaxy - no, wait, that's a different story.

 

A long time ago I spent a weekend with Ross Seyfried.  One of the exercises he had us do was to shoot an offhand group at 25 yards focusing very carefully on the sight picture.  Once that was done, he had us do another group, but putting all our concentration on the trigger.

 

For me, focusing on the trigger had far better results than the careful sight picture.

 

So I will say trigger is vital to accuracy - again -- at least for me.

 

Guy

 

Interesting drill. But, i bet the order of the drills affected the result. 

 

For the OP,  try shooting metric targets at 50 yds.  5 shot strings, 100 rounds.  I did that every day for a week and had tremendous improvements daily.  Then 35 became much easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, johnbu said:

 

Interesting drill. But, i bet the order of the drills affected the result. 

 

For the OP,  try shooting metric targets at 50 yds.  5 shot strings, 100 rounds.  I did that every day for a week and had tremendous improvements daily.  Then 35 became much easier.

I tried shooting at 44 yards, 30 shots. I'm not sure, I think I hit the target about 10 times. No more than 15 I guess. But it seemed like luck. And the fact is, I can't take a hour to shoot at 30-35 yards. I expect to find such targets at some IPSC matches and it will make a huge difference to shoot and hit in 1 second, or waste a lot more. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some years later I got serious about dry fire practice - meaning I was working on trigger control.  That improved my shooting greatly - and reinforced my belief that trigger control is critical.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I think nothing is as important a factor in shooting accurately and with precision as dryfire.. I do 1000+ dry fires a month. Each day, I have a routine after work that includes 50 minimum dryfire's using a shot timer. Weekends live fire and dryfire before bed.. its that fun..it developed my  ability to point shoot off the draw, slap the trigger without moving the gun, and most importantly, my grip strength is incredible now.. I can most likely break my glock if I wanted to squeeze hard enough.. its not hard to dryfire 1k a month.. DO IT

Dryfire..dryfire..more dryfire 

Edited by MixLord

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried again. No way this can be solved by more trigger control or dry fire, at the moment. I don't know if it could be improved by developing more muscle strength or anything else. But it's not practical at all for any shooting competition to just wait to see the proper sight picture while I'm moving so much. Shooting in 3 seconds instead of 0.5 for example, might be a huge difference in a competition. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, xdf3 said:

I tried again. No way this can be solved by more trigger control or dry fire, at the moment. I don't know if it could be improved by developing more muscle strength or anything else. But it's not practical at all for any shooting competition to just wait to see the proper sight picture while I'm moving so much. Shooting in 3 seconds instead of 0.5 for example, might be a huge difference in a competition. 

 

What kind of movement are you experiencing? Are you actually shaking or twitching? If you set up an IPSC target at 33yrds, how far out does your movement take you? Into the D zone? How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I don't know if it's more about muscle strength. I'm a pretty weak guy, I have barely any biceps and my forearm is far from ripped. But I have no problem holding the gun still enough, even in one-handed bullseye shooting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

What kind of movement are you experiencing? Are you actually shaking or twitching? If you set up an IPSC target at 33yrds, how far out does your movement take you? Into the D zone? How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I don't know if it's more about muscle strength. I'm a pretty weak guy, I have barely any biceps and my forearm is far from ripped. But I have no problem holding the gun still enough, even in one-handed bullseye shooting.

It's shaking, I think it's more than expected 'cause of my muscle strength. I think I could still hit the C zone most of the times if it was a target, but I couldn't say I would hit 100% A's. I'm in the 20-30 range and I'm pretty weak, except for my grip probably (which I can still improve). If I didn't use the laser I'd perceive it as still, or almost, but with the laser I'd say the movement is at least twice of the plate itself. If it's 8", an ideal group would be 16" assuming I would shoot infinite rounds. And since I can't shoot the exact moment I'm in the center of the target, an error will be evident. Also, all of this assuming my ammo goes straight (with an ideal 0.5" group). Add that factor and I think it's all explained. 

 

Maybe I can still work on ammo, I don't know what's the tighest group I can shoot, assuming there's no human error involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/25/2019 at 7:24 AM, GOF said:

I agree that it's a very rare factory pistol or revolver that won't hold an 8-inch plate at 30 yards with virtually any factory round or properly assembled handload, and that gun should be sent back.

Every one of the factors mentioned in the OP are important. I would rate a consistent grip, proper sight picture, and proper trigger press as the most important factors and all with the same level of importance. Grips that fit your hand, a smooth and light trigger, and decent sights all help. Stance is a factor in recoil control, and also in allowing you a stable enough platform to properly execute those three key factors. 

There is no one key factor. The whole system has to work together.

 

 

I agree with everything said here, but don't forget the mental side of things. 

 

I would also add what is possible with a handgun. I only brag to explain what is possible and to showcase how high quality handguns come into play. 

 

Sunday I was practicing 2-gun with some friends and I decided to run the same course, once with my Limcat Razorcat and SBR carbine and then I ran the whole course with just the Limcat. With just the Limcat, I was able to hit the nearby steel no problem, but then hit 3 50% IPSC targets at 100 yards, 65% IPSC at 150 yards and another 65% IPSC at 175 yards. My final shot was an 8 inch cicle at 250 yards, but that took me 5 shots to hit. I saved 4 seconds off my time. 

 

Anything is possible. Which is the mental aspect to this sport. You have to believe that you can hit the target and your body will figure it out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, xdf3 said:

It's shaking, I think it's more than expected 'cause of my muscle strength. I think I could still hit the C zone most of the times if it was a target, but I couldn't say I would hit 100% A's. I'm in the 20-30 range and I'm pretty weak, except for my grip probably (which I can still improve). If I didn't use the laser I'd perceive it as still, or almost, but with the laser I'd say the movement is at least twice of the plate itself. If it's 8", an ideal group would be 16" assuming I would shoot infinite rounds. And since I can't shoot the exact moment I'm in the center of the target, an error will be evident. Also, all of this assuming my ammo goes straight (with an ideal 0.5" group). Add that factor and I think it's all explained. 

 

Maybe I can still work on ammo, I don't know what's the tighest group I can shoot, assuming there's no human error involved.

Ammo is not the thing you need to be concerned about. If you're shaking, maybe you're gripping the gun too hard. Maybe you do need to hit the weights a bit. Buy some resistance bands and do reps while holding them in your hands in the same stance you would shoot a pistol in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

Ammo is not the thing you need to be concerned about. If you're shaking, maybe you're gripping the gun too hard. Maybe you do need to hit the weights a bit. Buy some resistance bands and do reps while holding them in your hands in the same stance you would shoot a pistol in.

I tried using the laser, with almost no grip. I tried with more grip, nothing changed. I tried with the gun with the laser mounted, same.

If there's a difference, it's minimal. 

What are the muscles involved in that movement?

 

I'll try to upload a video so you can see how much that movement is

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I'd be curious to see how much movement there is, and also a video of the laser on the target downrange.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I tried using the laser, with almost no grip. I tried with more grip, nothing changed. I tried with the gun with the laser mounted, same.

If there's a difference, it's minimal. 

What are the muscles involved in that movement?

 

I'll try to upload a video so you can see how much that movement is

 

 

OK so i reread all your post in this thread, and i have come up with some questions/ideas, that might help you and or help us determine some way to help you 

 

1 what do your groups look like at 7, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 yards

2 Are you lowering the gun letting your arms relax after each shot, or are you keeping your hands up and looking down the sights for the entire string?

3 Have you ever tried to group at distance with something like a B25 rapid fire bullseye target, with a 6 oclock hold?

4 have you ever tried shooting 25-30 yards with a 22 pistol?  If so, how did the groups look?

5 How long have you been shooting pistols?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/2/2019 at 1:38 AM, MixLord said:

I think nothing is as important a factor in shooting accurately and with precision as dryfire.. I do 1000+ dry fires a month. Each day, I have a routine after work that includes 50 minimum dryfire's using a shot timer. Weekends live fire and dryfire before bed.. its that fun..it developed my  ability to point shoot off the draw, slap the trigger without moving the gun, and most importantly, my grip strength is incredible now.. I can most likely break my glock if I wanted to squeeze hard enough.. its not hard to dryfire 1k a month.. DO IT

Dryfire..dryfire..more dryfire 

It just works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

OK so i reread all your post in this thread, and i have come up with some questions/ideas, that might help you and or help us determine some way to help you 

 

1 what do your groups look like at 7, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 yards

2 Are you lowering the gun letting your arms relax after each shot, or are you keeping your hands up and looking down the sights for the entire string?

3 Have you ever tried to group at distance with something like a B25 rapid fire bullseye target, with a 6 oclock hold?

4 have you ever tried shooting 25-30 yards with a 22 pistol?  If so, how did the groups look?

5 How long have you been shooting pistols?

 

1) I don't know, I've always had troubles in grouping and I couldn't ever understand why 

2) I usually don't, I practice for IPSC and tend to finish the magazine 

3) I don't know what it is, but I don't use IPSC targets to test accuracy

4) Long time ago, and groupings are similar to 9mm

5) About 3 years

 

Also I've experienced this since I started. While some eventually got a better group after 3-4 months, I couldn't, even with a better trigger pull. I can't say it is 100% true, but I'm pretty sure trigger pull here is not the issue, especially with no group at all. Shots are spread. I think I'm shooting when I think I'm on the target and I've moved the gun already (that little movement would be enough for 30 yards to make a big difference)

 

The fact that there are so many factors involved makes it harder to understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you dismissing trigger control?  No trigger control will result in no groups.

 

When using the laser, are you watching the dot, or your sights?  The laser (and you) will never be perfectly still.

 

Can you dry fire and drop the hammer without disturbing the sight picture (try this without the laser)?  What do you see when the hammer drops?  Aim at a light switch or such across the room (be absolutely certain the gun is unloaded).

 

How much dry fire are you doing?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think he's dismissing trigger control, more that OP has clearly said many times he is experiencing shaking which results in more movement that would be naturally expected.

 

That said, OP also said:

Quote

I think I'm shooting when I think I'm on the target and I've moved the gun already 

If you take this approach, where you're trying to shoot when you think you're on target, that lends itself to poor trigger control and/or poor sight alignment.  The problem is, you won't realise this. You THINK you're doing everything correct, but when you focus on chasing that perfect bullseye, you aren't focusing on your trigger pull and sights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Guy Neill said:

Why are you dismissing trigger control?  No trigger control will result in no groups.

 

When using the laser, are you watching the dot, or your sights?  The laser (and you) will never be perfectly still.

 

Can you dry fire and drop the hammer without disturbing the sight picture (try this without the laser)?  What do you see when the hammer drops?  Aim at a light switch or such across the room (be absolutely certain the gun is unloaded).

 

How much dry fire are you doing?

 

 

 

I'm dismissing trigger control  because I see how sights are moving when I pull the trigger, and if I do it with no time involved, sights won't move at all. 

They only move when I go for a too fast trigger pull with double action. 

 

I tried watching the laser by standing still, doing as much as I could (breath control, lowest tension possible) 

 

When I aim at such stuff I'm sure I won't move the sights when pulling the trigger

 

I'm doing more training for transitions and similar stuff lately. I'll verify with the laser again to track sights movement but I think trigger pull is not an issue at the moment (not the biggest one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

I don't think he's dismissing trigger control, more that OP has clearly said many times he is experiencing shaking which results in more movement that would be naturally expected.

 

That said, OP also said:

If you take this approach, where you're trying to shoot when you think you're on target, that lends itself to poor trigger control and/or poor sight alignment.  The problem is, you won't realise this. You THINK you're doing everything correct, but when you focus on chasing that perfect bullseye, you aren't focusing on your trigger pull and sights.

 

I don't think this is the problem, I am very conscious when I shoot and I can see when sights move for a bad trigger pull. I'm not focusing on the target but I make sure I align with the target in background. The point is, I can't understand why I can't hit it constantly (at such distances). 

 

I'm pretty confident at about 22-23 yards. The higher the distance, the less the confidence I have in hitting the target. The fact that I can't detect what's making it happen makes it frustrating. I'd prefer to see sights weren't aligned. I think the shadow2 sights are not perfect for precision shooting since there is a little too much light but I think that's not the cause in this case

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts are this. You are probably not going to solve this on the internet.

You need to get someone else involved, preferable a professional instructor.

Someone who can watch you shoot, find the problem, and coach you out of it.

(They can also shoot your gun and show you the gun/ammo is not the problem)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BobT said:

 

(They can also shoot your gun and show you the gun/ammo is not the problem)

 

IFF the gun/ammo is NOT the problem (or, at least, a part of the problem).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Check this video I've just made. Even when I haven't put so much effort on trigger pull, you can see it's maybe a 5% of the movement. 

 

8 yards, I used  a standard IPSC plate target, that probably is about 8"

 

If that's what happens at 8 yards, try guessing what you would see at 32.

 

 

Edited by xdf3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, xdf3 said:

1) I don't know, I've always had troubles in grouping and I couldn't ever understand why 

2) I usually don't, I practice for IPSC and tend to finish the magazine 

3) I don't know what it is, but I don't use IPSC targets to test accuracy

4) Long time ago, and groupings are similar to 9mm

5) About 3 years

 

Also I've experienced this since I started. While some eventually got a better group after 3-4 months, I couldn't, even with a better trigger pull. I can't say it is 100% true, but I'm pretty sure trigger pull here is not the issue, especially with no group at all. Shots are spread. I think I'm shooting when I think I'm on the target and I've moved the gun already (that little movement would be enough for 30 yards to make a big difference)

 

The fact that there are so many factors involved makes it harder to understand.

 

1 Go buy a 22 pistol and

2 start shooting at rocks on the back of the berm, sometimes the instant feed back seems to help a lot.  Adjust your sights for a 6 o'clock hold for this

3 Make sure your focus is on your front sight and the target is blurry, not the other way around

4 I saw your video, to me, you laser/hold/trigger pull looks pretty good

 

That is about all i got for you.  But, i do think the 22 would help you and that is something i normally don't recommend,  But, in this case the lack of recoil, and the feed back from the dirt splash and  rock/can jumping could IMO help quite a bit.  Good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...