Accuracy with handguns, most important factors

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, GOF said:

 

There is no one key factor. The whole system has to work together.

 

[Dave C]

Aligning the sights then PRESSING THE TRIGGER IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU DON"T DISTURB THE SIGHT ALIGNMENT.......

[xdf3]

I'm raising the question because I think I have a good trigger pull + good sight alignment, but I can't hold the gun so that it doesn't move. If I place a target behind a plate at 33 yards, the hits will spread around the plate (plus hitting it). No consistency. I'm not sure I'm pressing so bad that it can do that, sights won't move. I believe it's much more about the little movement in my hands, but I'm not sure of that yet (I'll have to do more experiments). I'm not sure of ammo neither, but I have no ransom rest. 

 

Maybe all factors sum up and create a bad result. It's a CZ Shadow2.

[Blackstone45]

55 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

I'm raising the question because I think I have a good trigger pull + good sight alignment, but I can't hold the gun so that it doesn't move. If I place a target behind a plate at 33 yards, the hits will spread around the plate (plus hitting it). No consistency. I'm not sure I'm pressing so bad that it can do that, sights won't move. I believe it's much more about the little movement in my hands, but I'm not sure of that yet (I'll have to do more experiments). I'm not sure of ammo neither, but I have no ransom rest. 

 

Maybe all factors sum up and create a bad result. It's a CZ Shadow2.

What kind of movement is it? Is it like random twitches or shaking? Or just natural movement around the point of aim? Natural movement is inevitable as you are a living breathing human being on two feet. But with that kind of movement, the sights tend to stay aligned, and you end up just drifting around the 9 ring. So any shots should all fall within the 9 ring. The problems come when it's a shaking or twitching movement as that does take the sights out of alignment. And that translates to a bad shot downrange. A common mistake is that the shooter becomes far too fixated on aiming at the dead centre of the target and trying to fight the natural movement of the gun, that they lose focus on their sight alignment. So when the shot breaks, they think their front post was in the middle, but it ends up being a hit in the 6-ring.

 

What is your group size at 33 yards?

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

 

What is your group size at 33 yards?

 

That is a KEY QUESTION     

[Ken6PPC]

PUT DOWN THE RED BULL!  

 

 

Seriously though, assuming your pistol (and I certainly think any CZ S2 is...) and your ammo is up to the task, you should be able to do better.  

 

Try balancing a quarter on top of the front sight.  Grip, aim, and squeeze the trigger until it breaks.  Did the quarter stay on the sight?  If not, practice until it does.  That should help eliminate your trigger press as an issue.  

 

Shooting your ammo from a rest should tell you if either your gun or ammo is the problem.  

[Vmax606]

1 hour ago, Ken6PPC said:

 

 

Try balancing a quarter on top of the front sight.  Grip, aim, and squeeze the trigger until it breaks.  Did the quarter stay on the sight?  If not, practice until it does.  That should help eliminate your trigger press as an issue.  

 

 

But, I have seen people that is rock solid when dry firing, and as soon as they think the gun is hot, it nose dives. As suggested, find a revolver then load 2 rounds randomly and you WILL find out how good your trigger pull is.

.

[xdf3]

1 hour ago, Ken6PPC said:

PUT DOWN THE RED BULL!  

 

 

Seriously though, assuming your pistol (and I certainly think any CZ S2 is...) and your ammo is up to the task, you should be able to do better.  

 

Try balancing a quarter on top of the front sight.  Grip, aim, and squeeze the trigger until it breaks.  Did the quarter stay on the sight?  If not, practice until it does.  That should help eliminate your trigger press as an issue.  

 

Shooting your ammo from a rest should tell you if either your gun or ammo is the problem.  

From what I see, the gun is not moving when I pull the trigger, except when I use DA (and I'll have to pull in a different way). That's why I'm not sure of anything.

 

I can't have a group if I don't know what's wrong, that's the key part. So I have to understand what's causing the issue, or if it's a sum.

Since the group is wide, I wouldn't associate it with trigger pull only, or it would be like most all low left or something like that. It's like I'm shooting around the plate and hit it sometimes. That's why I was asking for the factors. I'm in doubt it could be a combination of ammo + movement of arms

Edited May 30, 2019 by xdf3

[Vmax606]

14 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

From what I see, the gun is not moving when I pull the trigger, 

 

I can't have a group if I don't know what's wrong, that's the key part. So I have to understand what's causing the issue, or if it's a sum.

 

1) Do you see where the sight IS when the gun goes off ??

 

2)To see how good your gun and load is, shoot from a rest. Preferably one that you can rest  the butt and the dust shield too, I saw guy that shot from a sand bag and he flinched so bad that he hit the bottom of the target frame (12" below the dot).

.

[Blackstone45]

7 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I can't have a group if I don't know what's wrong, that's the key part. So I have to understand what's causing the issue, or if it's a sum.

Of course you can still have a group. It just sounds like a big group. Put a target up at 33 yards, fire 10 shots at it. Aim at the same place on the target for all 10 shots, shoot them in the same way, and don't look at the target until the end. Congratulations, you have now shot a group. How big is the spread?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Blackstone45

[Hi-Power Jack]

To diagnose your problem it is important for you to shoot, slowly and deliberately,

from a solid bench, a 15 shot group at a target 33 yards away.

 

See how large the "group" is, and where it's located (center of target or low/high/ left/right).

 

If you're shooting 3-5" groups, but they're 10" low and 10" to the left, you've solved your problem

 

If they're centered on the target, but 7-10" in size, now you have to find out if it's the gun/ammo

or you.

 

What are you hitting at 20 yards ?   That will be a clue as to what the problem is at 33 yards.

[lstange]

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

a 15 shot group at a target 33 yards away

A single 15 shot group is suboptimal.

 

For finding the zero a 5 shot group is sufficient, after that you're not getting much.

 

To determine dispersion it's better to average three 5 shot groups than to look at one 15 shot group. Actually 6 shot groups are even better, but the difference between 5 and 6 is negligible, and any box of ammo is a multiple of 5 so it's easier to count. There is a good reason American Rifleman uses average of 5 five-shot groups.

[Hi-Power Jack]

21 minutes ago, lstange said:

A single 15 shot group is suboptimal.

 

My personal preference is a single 15-shot group - that way you can

eliminate the 3-4 "flyers" and find the central portion of the group -

measure that and you know how large the group is, and where it's

shooting.     Just my personal preference.      

[lstange]

19 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

that way you can eliminate the 3-4 "flyers"

There should not be any flyers when shooting from the bench, so those "flyers" are just data points you don't like

 

Offhand is a different story. It makes sense to shoot a 10 shot group, exclude the worst shot, and measure the size of the remaining 9-shot group. It'll be similar to 5 shot group with no outliers, and several groups can be averaged the same way as well.

 

26 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Just my personal preference

When I said "suboptimal" I meant "using more ammo than necessary". But I must admit that shooting more is not necessarily bad.

[xdf3]

9 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

To diagnose your problem it is important for you to shoot, slowly and deliberately,

from a solid bench, a 15 shot group at a target 33 yards away.

 

See how large the "group" is, and where it's located (center of target or low/high/ left/right).

 

If you're shooting 3-5" groups, but they're 10" low and 10" to the left, you've solved your problem

 

If they're centered on the target, but 7-10" in size, now you have to find out if it's the gun/ammo

or you.

 

What are you hitting at 20 yards ?   That will be a clue as to what the problem is at 33 yards.

I think I'll have to swap with another shooter and try some combinations:
- him, my gun, my ammo
- him, my gun, his ammo
- me, his gun, my ammo
- me, his gun, his ammo

That way, I should find out if the problem is my, my gun, my ammo, or all. I don't think it's the gun or the issue would be more evident.

I can hit a plate (8" maybe) consistently at 20 yards, even at an average pace, maybe 0.5/0.7 seconds per shot.
I'm not sure, but maybe light/vision isn't helping. If only I could try whenever I wanted...

 

What I remember is, the group was spread all around the target, maybe something like 15" (don't take this as 100% accurate, that's what I remind at the moment)

[Hi-Power Jack]

4 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I think I'll have to swap with another shooter and try some combinations:
- him, my gun, my ammo
- him, my gun, his ammo
- me, his gun, my amm
- me, his gun, his amm

That way, I should find out if the problem is my, my gun, my ammo, or all. I don't think it's the gun or the issue would be more evident.

I can hit a plate (8" maybe) consistently at 20 yards, even at an average pace, maybe 0.5/0.7 seconds per shot.
I'm not sure, but maybe light/vision isn't helping. If only I could try whenever I wanted...

 

 the group was spread all around the target, maybe something like 15"

If that is firing offhand, at 33 yards, firing every .7 seconds, may not be too bad.

 

The question is - how large is that group if you shot deliberately from a solid bench ?

[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, lstange said:

There should not be any flyers when shooting from the bench,  

 

I agree that shooting more shots is not a bad idea   

 

You may be too young to remember Massad Ayoob - was a gun writer for American Handgunner.

 

He ALWAYS fired five from a bench and eliminated the worst one-two as "flyers" and measured

the size of the group from the remaining three/four shots (like a rifle group).

 

I modified his technique and fire c. 15 shots, and eliminate the worst 3-4 shots,

leaving 10-12 shot group in the center.

 

Especially good at a longer distance, and especially for OLD EYES.    

 

No, its NOT coincidental that my BHP held 15 shots in the mag    

 

And, BTW, firing three groups of five doesn't save any ammo from firing one

group of 15.     

 

BUT, it's just personal preference.   The key here is for the Op to find out how he's

shooting from a solid rest and slow, deliberate pace.   Try to find out if the problem

is his gun/ammo, or him.   So, I'd be happy if he took your approach of three - five

shot groups.     

[bimmer1980]

22 hours ago, xdf3 said:

From what I see, the gun is not moving when I pull the trigger, except when I use DA (and I'll have to pull in a different way). That's why I'm not sure of anything.

 

I can't have a group if I don't know what's wrong, that's the key part. So I have to understand what's causing the issue, or if it's a sum.

Since the group is wide, I wouldn't associate it with trigger pull only, or it would be like most all low left or something like that. It's like I'm shooting around the plate and hit it sometimes. That's why I was asking for the factors. I'm in doubt it could be a combination of ammo + movement of arms

Try the 50/50 drill. Fire one shot, followed by the next one dry. Don´t do that to slowly. If you see movement in your sights firing the dry shot, you can be pretty sure you have that movement (even stronger) if you know the shot is live fire.

[lstange]

3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

He ALWAYS fired five from a bench and eliminated the worst one-two as "flyers" and measured the size of the group from the remaining three/four shots (like a rifle group).

 

Those outside shots carry more information than the ones in the middle. It's ok to throw out 1 in 10 or 1 in 15, but 2 in 5 is going too far.

 

3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

eliminate the worst 3-4 shots, leaving 10-12 shot group in the center.

 

It's easy to eliminate one worst shot. Find the two shots that are the furthest from each other, close one with your thumb, measure the remaining group, close another, measure the remaining group, keep the smaller number. There are often many possible ways to eliminate three or four shots, making it either less practical, or somewhat judgmental.

[xdf3]

I've just checked by putting a laser under my gun and tracking the movement with a camera.

 

From what I see, 90% of the error comes from my arms moving, and me not being stable enough. No way I can shoot where I want with that much movement. Not an issue at all for most matches, but when it comes to hitting a plate at 30+ yards, I can't be sure of hitting it.

 

It's kinda sad to realize but I can work on it some way. I was pretty sure it wasn't because of slapping the trigger or such stuff. 

[Vmax606]

51 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

I've just checked by putting a laser under my gun and tracking the movement with a camera.

 

From what I see, 90% of the error comes from my arms moving,  I was pretty sure it wasn't because of slapping the trigger or such stuff. 

 

One way to do it is pausing the trigger pull when it's off target, and then continue when it's on.

 

The same way with shooting rifle standing, you take the shot when the sight is on the target.

.

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I've just checked by putting a laser under my gun and tracking the movement with a camera.

 

From what I see, 90% of the error comes from my arms moving, and me not being stable enough. No way I can shoot where I want with that much movement. Not an issue at all for most matches, but when it comes to hitting a plate at 30+ yards, I can't be sure of hitting it.

 

It's kinda sad to realize but I can work on it some way. I was pretty sure it wasn't because of slapping the trigger or such stuff. 

Embrace the wobble, nobody has sights that sit still on a target, also remember if you can hold the sights on target 90% of the time you will hit the target 90% of the time with a good trigger press.  you also only need to stay on target for a reasonably short amount of time, like if you stand there for a minute you will have more wobble than if you are just trying to hold on target for a half second. Get your sights to the target then spend more energy (mental or otherwise)  holding stiller for a fraction of a second while pressing the trigger, over time you will be able to anticipate when your sights will arrive at the target and  the fraction of time you need to stay there will get smaller and smaller.

 

[bimmer1980]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I've just checked by putting a laser under my gun and tracking the movement with a camera.

 

From what I see, 90% of the error comes from my arms moving, and me not being stable enough. No way I can shoot where I want with that much movement. Not an issue at all for most matches, but when it comes to hitting a plate at 30+ yards, I can't be sure of hitting it.

 

It's kinda sad to realize but I can work on it some way. I was pretty sure it wasn't because of slapping the trigger or such stuff. 

 

Bone support and relax. Use as less muscle as possible.

[Blackstone45]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I've just checked by putting a laser under my gun and tracking the movement with a camera.

 

From what I see, 90% of the error comes from my arms moving, and me not being stable enough. No way I can shoot where I want with that much movement. Not an issue at all for most matches, but when it comes to hitting a plate at 30+ yards, I can't be sure of hitting it.

 

It's kinda sad to realize but I can work on it some way. I was pretty sure it wasn't because of slapping the trigger or such stuff. 

If you're moving that much with a two handed grip, you may be gripping too hard, or your stance is suboptimal. That aside, it may be you have unrealistic expectations for how much movement there should be.

[xdf3]

2 hours ago, Vmax606 said:

 

One way to do it is pausing the trigger pull when it's off target, and then continue when it's on.

 

The same way with shooting rifle standing, you take the shot when the sight is on the target.

.

Kinda obvious, the problem is that the second I would pull, I wouldn't be on the target anymore.

 

That's what I realized. I could be on the target for very little time. I knew I have no muscles yet, compared to 99% of shooters, and that won't help. I do have a good grip and recoil management, but that's fine up to 25 yards I would say. After that, there's no more certainty. 

My stance is the typical isosceles stance, nothing new.