Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
sasquatch981

Frustration Level EPIC!!! 9mm muffin top issue needs resolution!!!

Recommended Posts

I am about to say screw it and never load 9mm again.  Here is the deal and photos lets see what we can figure out.

 

I am currently loading 147 gr Ibjehead coated bullets (but have loaded extreme plated, rainier plated, BBI, and Bayou Coated)  all have had some of the same issue.  With the coated, I scrape the coating off, and with the plated I "ripple" the coating to the essential same effect, leaving muffin top on the case where it meets the bullet.  This is all once fired indoor range brass sorted to keep out the weird internal stepped cases.

 

Loading Process on  a 650:

Size and decap using Dillion Carbide Dies,  Turned 1/4 turn past touching the plate to get a little cam over effect and try and decrease the "glock bulge"

Prime and drop powder using dillon powder die.

(I have used extreme bell, no bell, and the perfectly measured 3/thou bell on the case and it does the same on each type of belling)

Seat using a dillon 9mm Seating die

(Again, tried seating deep, and shallow, but typically at the 1.10 length to shoot in my glocks, and PCC)

Lee Factory Crimp die.

(Set to extreme crimp, proper crimp, and no crimp)  makes no difference.

 

Now as I load, I will get a full 25-30% muffin top on all rounds.  This is simply unacceptable.

 

At first I thought it was a bell issue, and therefore adjusted that, then thought it may be a seating issue, and then finally a crimp issue.  I have adjusted all items independent of the any other changes and still get about the same result.

 

Then I thought I might be "undersizing" the brass, and thus "shoving" the bullet into an area that is too narrow.  I remembered having a lee undersized die, and thought that was my problem, but when I checked the dies, I have the dillon, and must have the lee in the box somewhere.

 

Any Ideas?  Please help before the 9mm toolhead takes a dive off the end of the boat!!!

 

 

IMG_2842.jpg

IMG_2841.jpg

IMG_2845.jpg

IMG_2847.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#1- your 1/4 turn past on the sizing die for Glock bulge is probably tilting the plate enough to cause irregularities on the seating and crimping side of things.

 

#2- measurements with lead Bullets, case thickness, and final round oaw, can vary quite a bit, do they case gauge? Do they function well? 

 

#3- Dillon makes awesome stuff but I’ve never had good luck with their dies not shredding cases without enough live to cause suction issues.

 

#4- lube is good and a dab should do you.  Your pic looks like a rough carbide sizing ring to me though.

 

id guess though, your sizing die is too deep and the difference in the length of the cases you’re sizing on one side is causing the failures on the other side of the plate at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a simple fix for your issue. Your seating die is trying to crimp the case as you are seating the bullet. Turn the body of the seating die up a few turns and turn the seating stem back down to the OAL you want. As long as the seating die body is turned down too deep it won't matter how much you bell the case, the built in taper crimp in the seating die will still turn the edge of the case mouth into the bullet as you try to seat it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#1 Your Size and decap  Die,  set it so it's almost touching the plate. 0.003" -0.007"  above the plate!

#2  What bowenbuilt posted!  Your seating die is taking the bell out before it seats the bullet all the way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Seat the bullets in one operation and crimp in a second operation and this will prevent the crimp bulge.

 

And a Lyman type "M" expander will help seat the bullets straighter and help prevent removing the bullet coating.

 

vwgkeH3.jpg

 

And a taper crimp is to just remove the case mouth belling and streamline the case mouth for feeding.

 

Below a seated bullet before applying a taper crimp.

 

pRVen2j.jpg

 

Below the case after applying the taper crimp.

 

MfcwIQB.jpg

Edited by bigedp51

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ssanders224 said:

Shoot jacketed?

;) 

that

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the dillion seater, there is no seating stem, it just fits in place with a clip.  I will order a different seating die, that allows setting of the depth with a stem.  Hopefully that will cure the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get a Lee seating die. It has the stem that you can do fine adjustment. It’s what I’m using on my 550 and it’s been flawless so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#1 Run a Lee Undersized sizing die

#2 powder

#3 Bullet feed or empty to see pow

#4 Lee seat die

#5 Lee factory crimp

 

Do this and life will be good 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dillon seating die isn't supposed to have any crimp function. 

That's easy to check - flare a case and then measure the bell. Then run it through the seating die without actually seating a bullet - then measure the bell.

I've never done that check myself - but I don't have the problem with bullet slaughter you're having at the seating die.

 

Loading 40S&W - I did notice a very high failure rate  at the case gauge. That was range brass with the Glock bulge.  I now run brass through a Redding G-RX die before loading. 

Redding doesn't make that die for 9mm but Lee makes a kit that is based on the factory crimp die.  Since 9mm is a tapered case and not a true straight wall, I'm curious how that would work.   I would think that - as long as the die's inner dimension is .391 for the base and not .381 for the mouth - it should be good to go. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Khaot1c said:

The Dillon seating die isn't supposed to have any crimp function. 

That's easy to check - flare a case and then measure the bell. Then run it through the seating die without actually seating a bullet - then measure the bell.

I've never done that check myself - but I don't have the problem with bullet slaughter you're having at the seating die.

 

Loading 40S&W - I did notice a very high failure rate  at the case gauge. That was range brass with the Glock bulge.  I now run brass through a Redding G-RX die before loading. 

Redding doesn't make that die for 9mm but Lee makes a kit that is based on the factory crimp die.  Since 9mm is a tapered case and not a true straight wall, I'm curious how that would work.   I would think that - as long as the die's inner dimension is .391 for the base and not .381 for the mouth - it should be good to go. 

 

 

Use a 9 makerov die for push through 9mm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100% agree on crimp before seating all the way, something is off. Also, switch to a MBF powder funnel if you dont want to get an M die and flare separately. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Squatch, the issue doesn't look like the dies.  From what I see your probably using the standard F size dillon powder funnel which has a straight angle to it.  Its for most 9mm, but from the pictures I'm assuming your running 147gr projectiles which are very long, so the bottom of the projectile is caught by the taper of the case.

 

Instead of changing all kinds of sizing dies and messing with stuff that probably won't help and just cause more issues, I'm going to recommend changing to the  D size dillon powder funnel, which is designed for the 38 special/357 mag.   Mess with the depth to get it right, but I have a theory this will fix your problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Use something like a Hornady seating die and back off enough to not crimp at all, then factory crimp. I'm not familiar with the Dillon seating dies, but it looks like the die is taper crimping the case before the projectile is fully seated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2019 at 12:31 PM, lee blackman said:

Squatch, the issue doesn't look like the dies.  From what I see your probably using the standard F size dillon powder funnel which has a straight angle to it.  Its for most 9mm, but from the pictures I'm assuming your running 147gr projectiles which are very long, so the bottom of the projectile is caught by the taper of the case.

^Agreed.

Had the same issue/outcome when loading 147's.  Changing the flare didn't help because the coating was getting scraped by the sized/tapered portion of the case.  I imagine there's a host of ways to approach fixing this issue, from dies, testing different bullet profiles to what Lee mentions about the powder die. 

 

For me the easiest/quickest resolution was to quit loading 147s; no issues since then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2019 at 12:31 PM, lee blackman said:

Squatch, the issue doesn't look like the dies.  From what I see your probably using the standard F size dillon powder funnel which has a straight angle to it.  Its for most 9mm, but from the pictures I'm assuming your running 147gr projectiles which are very long, so the bottom of the projectile is caught by the taper of the case.

 

Instead of changing all kinds of sizing dies and messing with stuff that probably won't help and just cause more issues, I'm going to recommend changing to the  D size dillon powder funnel, which is designed for the 38 special/357 mag.   Mess with the depth to get it right, but I have a theory this will fix your problem.

This is interesting. I am having all of the same issues OP notes and this is a suggestion I have not yet considered. I am currently running all dillon dies but am switching to a redding comp. seating die in the next couple of days. Maybe I will play with the powder funnel as well. 

 

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now you guys have me thinking about this. My cases look similar to OPs after loading with 147s. I usually just dial back the crimp, but there's still more bell than I like. I just placed an order for the Lee factory crimp die and the DA Hornady PTX - I'm hoping it's going to be an improvement on the Hornady brand PTX seeing as it's more of a two-step expander. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2019 at 10:55 AM, zander1555 said:

Use something like a Hornady seating die and back off enough to not crimp at all, then factory crimp. I'm not familiar with the Dillon seating dies, but it looks like the die is taper crimping the case before the projectile is fully seated.

 

I pretty much exclusively load coated bullets (ACME, ibijeheads, Blue, whatever..) and I've never had a problem using a Hornady Series II Taper Crimp Die Set.

 

Station 1 - deprime and resize

Station 2 - expand

Station 3 - powder

Station 4 - empty

Station 5 - Seat and taper crimp

 

The Hornady seat and taper crimp is great with coated bullets.  Even when I have to pull bullets because of bad primer strike, etc, there's very little damage to the coating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here is my take on this issue.  i think its the variation in the length of 9mm that might be the issue since it does not do it on every round.  to set up the flare die i measure a bunch of cases and then pick on from the short to mid length.  this makes it so longer ones will get a little more flare while short one will get just slightly less, but at least will get some.  if you just used a long case to set the flare then all the short cases would not get much and would scrape going in .  

 

grab a bunch of 9mm cases and measure them and the length variation will surprise you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the ideas guys.  Picked up a new Hornady seater, and installed yesterday.  Adjusted to seat only, and not crimp at all.  Ran a couple of test rounds and it seated everything perfect, and to length, and there was still the slight bell on the case.  Next station was the lee factory crimp, and took all the bell away and added a slight crimp.  NO MORE MUFFIN TOPS!!!!!  Ran them through my AR9, MPX (soon to be for sale), and my glocks.  NO ISSUES.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2019 at 10:33 PM, drewbeck said:

#1 Run a Lee Undersized sizing die

#2 powder

#3 Bullet feed or empty to see pow

#4 Lee seat die

#5 Lee factory crimp

 

Do this and life will be good 

^^^^^^ YES....or Reading Competition Searing die is excellent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, sasquatch981 said:

Thanks for all the ideas guys.  Picked up a new Hornady seater, and installed yesterday.  Adjusted to seat only, and not crimp at all.  Ran a couple of test rounds and it seated everything perfect, and to length, and there was still the slight bell on the case.  Next station was the lee factory crimp, and took all the bell away and added a slight crimp.  NO MORE MUFFIN TOPS!!!!!  Ran them through my AR9, MPX (soon to be for sale), and my glocks.  NO ISSUES.

 

 

Glad you got it worked out.

 

I wonder if the issue is the same thing I've run into before, which is different than everyone else mentioned in this thread - sometimes with cast bullets, the bullet's driving band (part that contacts the bore) diameter is large enough that the inside of the seater die scrapes off lead and/or coating, even though you're not trying to apply a crimp. This usually happens with a traditional seat/crimp die that's backed off just barely enough not to crimp if the "alignment" part of the die (just above the crimp taper) is tighter than the cast bullet diameter; the solution is to back the die body out further and lower the seating stem more. On the Dillon seater die though - that shouldn't happen, but maybe you got one that's just a bit tight in the section of the die that aligns the bullet before seating, and unfortunately you can't lower the stem in the body other than having a new one made. 

 

That tight section of the die is intended to align bullets with the case during seating, and is usually sized for jacketed bullets, so when tolerances stack up in the wrong direction with a tight die and fat bullets, scraping as you showed can happen. As a side note - fat bullets are a good thing in cast bullets, either lubed or coated, as long as they still chamber easily; undersized bullets can be a problem. 

 

Either way, looks like you solved it. Maybe the explanation above will help if you encounter this issue again. 

Edited by Yondering

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.  Get this powder funnel.  http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1582

 

My 650 is set up as follows.

 

1.  Resize and decap.  You don't want any cam over on a Dillon as they don't have a cam over linkage.  Your sizing die should be touching your shell plate and NO MORE.

2.  Seat primer and powder dump.

3.  Empty station, I have used a RCBS Lock-Out die here in the past.

4.  Dillon seating die.

5.  Dillon crimp die.

 

I ran 1500 rounds last week with only 7 rounds not passing the gauge.  I'm using bullets I cast, coated with Hi-Tek, and sized to .357.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2019 at 1:53 AM, sasquatch981 said:

I am about to say screw it and never load 9mm again.  Here is the deal and photos lets see what we can figure out.

 

I am currently loading 147 gr Ibjehead coated bullets (but have loaded extreme plated, rainier plated, BBI, and Bayou Coated)  all have had some of the same issue.  With the coated, I scrape the coating off, and with the plated I "ripple" the coating to the essential same effect, leaving muffin top on the case where it meets the bullet.  This is all once fired indoor range brass sorted to keep out the weird internal stepped cases.

 

Loading Process on  a 650:

Size and decap using Dillion Carbide Dies,  Turned 1/4 turn past touching the plate to get a little cam over effect and try and decrease the "glock bulge"

Prime and drop powder using dillon powder die.

(I have used extreme bell, no bell, and the perfectly measured 3/thou bell on the case and it does the same on each type of belling)

Seat using a dillon 9mm Seating die

(Again, tried seating deep, and shallow, but typically at the 1.10 length to shoot in my glocks, and PCC)

Lee Factory Crimp die.

(Set to extreme crimp, proper crimp, and no crimp)  makes no difference.

 

Now as I load, I will get a full 25-30% muffin top on all rounds.  This is simply unacceptable.

 

At first I thought it was a bell issue, and therefore adjusted that, then thought it may be a seating issue, and then finally a crimp issue.  I have adjusted all items independent of the any other changes and still get about the same result.

 

Then I thought I might be "undersizing" the brass, and thus "shoving" the bullet into an area that is too narrow.  I remembered having a lee undersized die, and thought that was my problem, but when I checked the dies, I have the dillon, and must have the lee in the box somewhere.

 

Any Ideas?  Please help before the 9mm toolhead takes a dive off the end of the boat!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sas:

I was dealing with your issues several years ago.............

 

Hope this helps!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...