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RolexJohn

Did I make the right call?

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1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

To, "next time come find me"
I woulda replied, "Next time write a decent WSB"
 

Yup!

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5 hours ago, RolexJohn said:

 

The larger lesson to be learned here, I think, is how important it is that RO's have radios.

 

 

This was the first thought I had when I read that you would have had to go find the MD.

 

That stage should have been thrown out.  I ultimately think your call was fine.  It's not the call I would have made, but I see where you were coming from and it is very logical.

 

 "His position was that the condition of the port door didn't need to be spelled out in the WSB...it should have been obvious"

 

You can't be expected to read his mind. 

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It's not winging it to game the stage given what is in (or not in) the WSB.

If the door isn't an activator for a moving target where it needs to be closed to reset the stage, then go by WSB. If it's not specified then intent be damned, it's open when I run it.

The few times I've have a stage that had a door by itself, the WSB has always said closed at start signal.

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So,......... before the Match there was no RO all stage Walk Through?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, WaJim said:

So,......... before the Match there was no RO all stage Walk Through?

 

 

 

Maybe or maybe not.  I'm one of the folks that would assume a door would need to start closed.  Hats off to the folks that saw the stage a little bit differently.

 

As for throwing out the stage, all of the competitors could have come up with the same idea.  It was shot as the WSB was written so the scores should stand.

 

You would be surprised what competitors can come up with that even the most experience RO's will not pickup on the pre-match walk through.

 

Years back I designed stages for several Level 2 and 3 matches.  These were prepared months before the match and reviewed by not only several experienced RO and competitors but also by the NROI.  Come match day, there was always someone that invented a better mouse trap. You could scratch your head and ask why we didn't think about it, but by then that's all we can do.

 

Bottom line, design the best stages you can, write a WSB that hopefully will keep the stages fair and equitable and don't be surprised when something like this happens.

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So,......... before the Match there was no RO all stage Walk Through?
 
 


No.


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When a stage is set, you don't need to be told in the WSB that it has to be set. It just is. Permission to be able to freestyle a door open would be allowed by a note in the WSB, lack of a note is not permission.

 

Doors, props, and activators are the same. You don't get to pick which way a swinger is set, or not have a swinger set, because the WSB doesn't say anything about setting the swinger.

 

If there is confusion as to the starting state of a prop, you would ask a match official that knows. I would be extremely annoyed by a squad assuming they get to rearrange a stage to their personal liking.

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10 hours ago, RolexJohn said:

 

 "How do you asses a procedural for shooting the stage exactly as it was described in the WSB?"

 

 

4.5.1

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Ima hava agree with Nick

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Posted (edited)

If it's not specified in the brief it's up to the shooter. If the stage is already shot and a reshoot is impossible the stage should be dropped.

 

Edit to add: While I agree that if the door is closed, one could assume that the door should be closed at the start signal but these are the kind of things that are easily forgotten by a previous squad, creating confusion. The main lesson here seems to be that walk throughs are a valuable tool to clear up things like this.

 

 

Edited by JonasAberg

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In the OP it stated that it was a door attached to a port.  By default doors on ports are closed.  If the designer intended for the port to be open they would have blocked it in some manner so that its normal position was open.  Even if the door was hinged so that it opened to the left or right it would have been blocked to keep it open so that it could not be closed.  It this was a swinger the squad could not choose to reset it so that the target was out and available until activated.  "Sarcasm"  "Well the WSB did not say it had to be reset so that it was hidden."

 

Now if the WSB did not state how the door was to be opened or held open then it becomes part of the problem.  I have shot stages where the door had a hinge on the top and we dropped it on our heads after we opened it with our weak hand so that we could bring our weak hand back to the gun.  Activating props is part of the problem, their starting state should not be part of the problem.  If there is a question about how to properly reset a target or activator then that should be addressed at the shooters meeting or with a RO walkthrough before the match starts. 

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Part of the problem is that a lot of local matches I’ve been to don’t write a true WSB. They give you the stage diagram with the information on that page and that’s it. 

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I am not understanding why people keep saying "if it isn't in the WSB, then the competitor can do what they like."  That isn't true.

 

This is a stage prop.  The position of stage props are almost NEVER written into WSBs.  I can't recall the last time I have EVER seen a WSB contain information like "the door starts closed" or "the port starts covered" or anything like that.  I mean, seriously, say you have a port where you have to pull a rope to open it, but during the walkthrough you yank it hard enough to make it stick open.  Do you think you get to start that way if the WSB doesn't say otherwise?

 

When is the last time at a major, where there was a door or a covered port or something, it specified the initial condition of that stage prop?  Never?

 

Yes---there should have been a walkthrough, or at least a mention somewhere to the shooters (or at least the ROs) regarding the port.  On the other hand, I don't understand why anyone would think "we can just do what we want" with regard to stages props.  And I certainly agree that if there is a question on the stage, ask the RM instead of just doing "whatever" and causing either a stage to be thrown out, or a competitive unfairness situation.

 

There were screwups in a number of places here, but it wasn't because someone didn't write it into the WSB.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DKorn said:

Part of the problem is that a lot of local matches I’ve been to don’t write a true WSB. They give you the stage diagram with the information on that page and that’s it. 

 

You get a diagram? Wow. Luxurious. :D 

 

At my local, we do an all-stage walkthrough for ROs and shooters just before the match starts. Everyone walks every bay.

 

The course designer steps up, verbally notifies everyone of start position and firearm condition, and describes the course.

 

We actually have very little problem with miscues using this method. If one guy wasn’t paying attention, three other guys were listening to the walkthrough and know the stage requirements when you walk into that bay three hours later.

 

It’s also easier on the MD because if we don’t remember a start position or somesuch, we know who designed the stage and can go get the info straight from the horse’s mouth.

 

When I utilize a wall section with a door and want to keep it open (have done this once or twice to permit lowcap guys to flow through the middle of the stage shooting on the move) I’ll drive a stake in the ground to hold it open. Not much room for misinterpretation that way. ;) 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Well, am i the only one that can not figure out the sense of an open door?

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3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

This is a stage prop.  The position of stage props are almost NEVER written into WSBs.  I can't recall the last time I have EVER seen a WSB contain information like "the door starts closed" or "the port starts covered" or anything like that.  I mean, seriously, say you have a port where you have to pull a rope to open it, but during the walkthrough you yank it hard enough to make it stick open.  Do you think you get to start that way if the WSB doesn't say otherwise?

 

 

I'm guessing this is what happened - at a past match for OP, someone wrote the starting point of a prop into the WSB. You /could/ do this for clarification to prevent such a situation from happening, but it isn't required. So OP saw the lack of such a note and assumed that meant they could do as they please, where he should have asked how the prop should be set.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Well, am i the only one that can not figure out the sense of an open door?

Most local clubs don’t have copious amounts of walls and other props. I have seen many stages where there is a port with a flap built in. Sometimes closed but sometimes left open

Edited by Sarge

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46 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Most local clubs don’t have copious amounts of walls and other props. I have seen many stages where there is a port with a flap built in. Sometimes closed but sometimes left open

Yes, i know. Same here. But issn´t it open all the time then ?

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4 hours ago, bimmer1980 said:

Yes, i know. Same here. But issn´t it open all the time then ?

In local matches where this occurs I would say it should specify somewhere on stage description, WSB, RO notes, etc. when you walk in a room and it’s hanging open and MD can’t tell for sure how any squad other than his shot it, there is a problem. Yes, I was there, on the squad, and I gave my opinion.

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I was at this match.  We were the first squad to shoot this stage and we started with the door closed.  I appreciate the efforts of both the new match director and the new RO.  Without volunteers like you both, these matches could not be held.  I say, “Shake hands and move on together.”

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At my home club, unfortunately, 90 percent of those who go out in the heat, cold, rain, etc. to set up stages do not have a firm ( or even soft) understanding of the rules. Information is often left off of the WSB, and stages often violate the rules. We even wrote the range command on the timer, but to no avail.

 

While all of this is bad, we do have a small cadre of shooters who are very rule proficient. 

 

Mix these factors together, shake well and pour out several glasses of heartburn. Because I have a fair understanding of the rules I often get dragged into trying to mediate these situations. Shooting used to be fun, but not anymore. It has turned into more of a blood sport. Maybe it is just 40 years of burnout.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stony Lane said:

I was at this match.  We were the first squad to shoot this stage and we started with the door closed.  I appreciate the efforts of both the new match director and the new RO.  Without volunteers like you both, these matches could not be held.  I say, “Shake hands and move on together.”

 

This is my favorite post on this thread!

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37 minutes ago, CSEMARTIN said:

 

This is my favorite post on this thread!

Except the MD has been there for years.

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Congrats, you’ve met a BOC


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2 hours ago, Matt1 said:

Congrats, you’ve met a BOC


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🤣🤣

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