Squib loads during a match

[tomv]

I shot an indoor man on man steel plate match last night. I was having a bad night and on my last round my first shot was a click no boom. It was pretty noisy with the other guy shooting and in the heat of battle I assumed it was just a bad primer so I racked the gun and tried to continue. I could swear that I saw a compete round eject. I got a very loud boom and black smoke coming out of unexpected areas of the gun.. After inspecting the gun I found that I had two big longitudinal cracks in the barrel which was jammed solidly in the bushing. The gun was a year old Limcat Steelcat 2011 which I normally use for Steel Challenge. It's on its way back to Julian today for a new barrel and who knows what else to get it running again. I think the damage is limited to the barrel and comp because of the light loads I was shooting (109 PF).

 

If this was a SC match or another event where I was shooting alone I probably would have heard a light report from the gun and stopped. From now on if I have a click with no boom i'm just going to stop, no matter what. I'm curious what the rest of you do under these circumstances during a match.

 

A secondary question is how i got the squib in the first place. I load on a super 1050 with a Mark 7 Autodrive. I've loaded between 15, 000 and 16,000 rounds so far on that press and this is the first squib I've seen. I kind of thought squibs were impossible if you keep the powder measure full on that machine. My best guess is that I probably put an empty case back in the shell plate after checking the powder charge (by dumping the powder after weighing it like you do when you're adjusting the charge weight in the first place). I'd also like your ideas on root causes of Squib creation if you have them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guy Neill]

You should always stop and investigate when there is an off sounding report, or no report whgen one is expected.

 

Squibs, particularly BIB squibs (bullet in bore), as you've experienced are a problem when the next round is fired.

 

Squibs (generically any lower than expected round) can be caused by;

 

No powder,

low powder,

contaminated powder,

contaminated primer,

primers with insufficient priming compound

 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Guy Neill

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've had a few "squibs", with NO powder, and the bullet got seated in my TruBor 9mm Major

in the barrel, but not far enough that another round could fully seat - so I was safe.

 

Sounds like, if your bullet was further down the barrel, that there might have been SOME

powder in there - just not enough to get the bullet out of the barrel.

[RJH]

I would have probably blew my gun up too. When racing,  i race to win, and if you you tear something up in the process, I chalk it up to crap happens.

 

I have never loaded on a 1050, so no help there,  but do agree that there was some powder in the case. IME a primer won't push a bullet far enough down the barrel to chamber another round. 

[GregJ]

Only squid I've had, and blew up a Barstow barrel in a custom 1911, was due to insufficient drying process after starting wet tumbling brass with SS pins.  Though I thought the brass was dry enough, there was enough moisture to contaminate powder and/or primer.  For a lot of reasons went back to media tumbling brass.  

[tomv]

I agree with the no powder comments. I actually test a new gun when I get it by firing primer only loads in them to see if another round will chamber behind it. My Limcats won't (KKM barrel) but that didn't help me in this case.

 

The other possibility for my 1050 autodrive set up is that once in while  a case will get momentarily stuck  between the sloppy stock Dillon shellplate and locating button. when the jam clears it throws some powder out of the filled case and sometimes will also throw the unseated bullet. I'm pretty attentive when loading and when this happens I stop the press and remove the affected cases from the machine. I never let the machine run unattended but now I'm thinking that I might have missed one of those.

 

Anyone have experience with FFB or TNT shellplate on 1050?

[GregJ]

5 minutes ago, tomv said:

Anyone have experience with FFB or TNT shellplate on 1050?

 

Feedback I have seen from commercial guys favors the TNT. 

[belus]

That's a tough situation: indoors, another shooter, low PF, single action only gun.  Based on where the barrel cracked I think your squib almost made it out. A bullet closer to the breach would have probably burst through the ejection port.

 

I've had two squibs in my CZ and one scare. The first was light powder load and made it partially down the barrel. I stopped because the recoil felt funny.

The second was a no-powder load. I also stopped because of a weird recoil impulse, but the bullet didn't make enough progress to chamber the second round.

 

My one scare was not actually a squib, but very light charge that I interpreted as one. Thankfully I was outdoors and able to see some light down the barrel before continuing. If I was indoors I would have stopped myself and put a rod down the muzzle.

I attribute the squibs to short stroking my 650. I kind of miss the simplicity of my old 550.

[CSEMARTIN]

13 minutes ago, belus said:

If I was indoors I would have stopped myself and put a rod down the muzzle.

 

We're having a discussion about sweeping on another thread.  What are your thoughts on this?

 

 

[belus]

10 minutes ago, CSEMARTIN said:

We're having a discussion about sweeping on another thread.  What are your thoughts on this?

 

The zip tie is a good idea. Or a bit of weed wacker string etc.

 

I'll post my thoughts on DQing in the other thread.

[nick779]

Im a newer shooter, I buy reman ammo from Fenix or Angelfire which have been trustworthy, but squibs in general terrify me. 

 

147gr 130PF loads are already soft so im just a bit apprehensive if ill be able to tell the difference between a regular round and a no powder load in the heat of a match.

[BJB]

1 hour ago, nick779 said:

Im a newer shooter, I buy reman ammo from Fenix or Angelfire which have been trustworthy, but squibs in general terrify me. 

 

147gr 130PF loads are already soft so im just a bit apprehensive if ill be able to tell the difference between a regular round and a no powder load in the heat of a match.

You'll certainly be able to tell the difference if powder is present.  If you were to have a squib in the heat of a match the larger problem would be in having a ‘no-powder’ squib and getting a "no-fire click" and thinking you just had a bad primer or something instead of a squib and jacking another round in behind it and firing.........just like described by the OP.  Sometimes you hear a little 'pop' with a squib and sometime you don't.  Just the power of the primer will push that bullet up the barrel further than you’d think it could.

 

I've had one squib and it just so happened to be in a match.  I just heard a 'click' like when dry-firing, the RO just heard a 'click', and everyone else on the squad just heard a 'click'. Nobody realized I had a squib and these are all experienced shooters.  I tried jacking another round in and luckily it wouldn't chamber fully because the squib was wedged in the throat and the next round was bottoming out on it and unable to chamber.

 

I've encountered several squibs over time while ROing.  They were all a 'no-charge' squib except one.  That one squib that went 'bang' was actually factory ammo and it was evidentially a 'low-charge' squib but it was entirely noticeable that something wasn't right.  The gun actually cycled and chambered the next round but it was very noticeable that something wasn’t right and I stopped the guy.  I’d say the more dangerous squib is the ‘no-charge’ squib because you may or may not hear the ‘pop’.

Edited May 10, 2019 by BJB

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, BJB said:

I've encountered several squibs over time while ROing.  They were all a 'no-charge' squib except one.  That one squib that went 'bang' was actually factory ammo and it was evidentially a 'low-charge' squib but it was entirely noticeable that something wasn't right.  The gun actually cycled and chambered the next round but it was very noticeable that something wasn’t right and I stopped the guy.  I’d say the more dangerous squib is the ‘no-charge’ squib because you may or may not hear the ‘pop’.

 

Good RO'ing. With all the sounds going on and close stages nearby from other shooters, it can be very hard to hear a squib load. I had a round not go off, as I ejected the round, I looked over on the ground and saw it land and it still had the bullet in the case. Bad primer strike. So I continued. 

 

As an RO, I hope if I every encounter what is a squib load, or deems to be a squib load, I'll stop the competitor. If no squib was found, then it's a Re-Shoot. If a squib was found, then the competitor is ordered to remedy the problem and no Re-Shoot, then score stage as seen. If you as the shooter encounter a squib load, don't try to fix it during the COF, that is a DQ.

 

5.7.2.1 Attempting to clear a suspected “squib” is specifically prohibited
under this provision whether the range officer has called stop or
not. Attempting to clear a squib during a course of fire is
considered unsafe gun handling and will result in a disqualification
(see 10.5.20).
 

Here's a vid about squib loads. 

 

 

[Guy Neill]

Of all the BIB's I've seen, more would allow chambering another round than would not.  There are many variables, so no absolute on where the bullet will stop in the bore.

[BoyGlock]

Usually squibs have some if not lots smoke in the chamber area when racked hurriedly open to feed another round. 

[mlmiller1]

I understand youre loading on an automated press.  Are you using hornady 1 shot lube?  I personally & I know of others that have experienced multiple squibs using 1 shot.  Literally had 1 bullet stick in a cardboard target....... nearly stuck in barrel.  No more 1 shot, no more squibs.  

[CSEMARTIN]

I’ve used one shot for years. Never had a squib in tens of thousands of rounds.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, CSEMARTIN said:

I’ve used one shot for years. Never had a squib in tens of thousands of rounds.

 

Really popular with the people I shoot with. No idea how many rounds we have shot.

 

[CSEMARTIN]

I do remember that I was initially concerned about one shot causing a problem when I first started using it.

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

I understand youre loading on an automated press.  Are you using hornady 1 shot lube?  I personally & I know of others that have experienced multiple squibs using 1 shot.  Literally had 1 bullet stick in a cardboard target....... nearly stuck in barrel.  No more 1 shot, no more squibs.  

 

Each of us has our own preferences and ways to solve problems. 

 

I load on a 1050 and have used 1 Shot for close to 20k rounds and have zero issues with it. I believe it helps smooth out the process and leave almost zero residue behind. In fact it is so clean I do not clean the post production rounds at all; something I had to do with other case lubes I previously used. 

 

Of course each of us has worked their issues, preferences and come up system that loads reliably. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by HesedTech

[mlmiller1]

16 hours ago, HesedTech said:

 

Each of us has our own preferences and ways to solve problems. 

 

I load on a 1050 and have used 1 Shot for close to 20k rounds and have zero issues with it. I believe it helps smooth out the process and leave almost zero residue behind. In fact it is so clean I do not clean the post production rounds at all; something I had to do with other case lubes I previously used. 

 

Of course each of us has worked their issues, preferences and come up system that loads reliably. 

This is absolutely correct.  I probably used too much 1 shot & didnt wait long enough for it to evaporate but I use the same process with dillon case lube & never had a problem.  I do tumble lube removal after loading.  I dont mind since Ive never had anymore ultralight squib loads.  

[orangeride]

I had my first squid out of 30k rounds last month. I had left my Ammo can open when it started raining as I was cleaning up, the next time at the range I was having a ton (5%) of primers that wouldn’t fire (147gr bear creek moly 3.0 gr TG win primers). Sure enough I had one primer that barely touched off and left the Bullet in the bore. Luckily I was just training at the range. The funny thing was that I don’t think my ammo got that wet, there was no water in the bottom of my Ammo can. But obviously it was enough to cause issues. 

[Jim Watson]

Yup.  The only truly waterproof ammo I found after The Incident exposed my stuff to fire hose water and rain through the burnt out roof, was real USGI. 

[admcd]

I've had precisely two squibs in my competing/reloading career.

 

First was in March of this year.  Primer went bang on no powder in the case.  Lodged just past the feed ramp and locked the gun up hard.  Projectile didn't even leave the case all the way.  Damn near had to beat it apart to clear.

 

The other was the one that sticks with me: Burning a stage down, heard a pop, hiss and no recoil.  RO didn't notice, squad didn't notice but I sure did.  Stopped myself, told the RO what happened and went over to the safe table to confirm.  Had a bullet lodged 50% of the way down the pipe.  I absolutely could have chambered another round and blew up the gun if I wasn't paying enough attention.

[38supPat]

There is always a distinct sound when a squib goes off, it’s never a click. The sound of the primer firing will give a funny pop. With a lot of ambient noise like OP described it will be hard to hear but it’s there. A guy on my squad a few years ago at Ryan Rocks match had a squib in the shoot house. I distinctly heard it from outside but the RO and shooter didn’t recognize it and the shooter attempted to rack about 2 mags worth of .45s through it before giving up. The shooter and the RO both couldn’t figure out why it wouldn’t feed, I told the shooter he had a squib and he didn’t believe me until he went to safety area and...squib in barrel. 
So a couple of tips, learn to hear the sound of a squib, it’s pretty distinct. If the next round won’t feed like the  chamber is blocked, it probably is. Stop and check it at safety area. No stage is worth getting hurt over. Lastly, as the shooter or RO, learn to watch the brass coming out of the gun any time you clear a malfunction. If it is a squib, primer or light powder charge, the casing will come out black since it won’t seal the chamber and the primer soot or partial powder charge will flow back and darken the casing.