PCC and movement

[p7fl]

Been shooting Single Stack or Production since they were introduced. Step, step, reload. My home club also is space limited so the monthly match had limited movement.

Just SBR’d my Colt for PCC and the first match was the most fun I’ve had in years, has me excited again about shooting.

So much to learn. Shooting AR’s for long time but never under the clock and never with sprints.

My natural instinct is to drop the rifle to my dominant hand and hip and then run. What I am seeing posted on videos is:

Shooters keeping both hands on the rifle when moving.

Lifting the buttstock above their shoulders when moving.

Or last just lowering the stock and rifle 2 or 3 inches off their shoulder but still in front.

 

I get that not having to raise the rifle from a low position gets you ready faster when you hit your spot, but after that is it situational?

Or is their one definite faster place or way to hold a rifle and move?

DVC

jon

[longbeard]

Situational.  You will need to use all three approaches depending on what you are trying to negotiate and what direction you are moving.  If you have to break grip and really move, I like the buttstock above shoulder.  This works well for weak side movement as well as many times moving weak side with both hands risks a 180.  A lot of times moving forward or strong side you can keep grip.  For a few steps I try not to drop the muzzle at all.  For longer steps I drop the muzzle, but keep the stock on the shoulder.

 

 

 

 

[egd5]

I think Longbeard has it right. But I was watching a video of Max Leograndis  the other day and when he sprinted he just held the gun in strong hand and took off. Nice to have young legs also.

[ABQautoxer]

Situational was the best way to put it. Direction relative to down range and distance to travel are key. 4 steps or less parallel or down range, I’ll leave both on it. Up range or far movement I’ll pump my arms and only have my strong hand on the pistol grip.

[MemphisMechanic]

Stock thrown back over strong shoulder is best for short movements and transitions around walls.

 

For long runs, don’t be afraid to drop into stronghand and haul ass.

 

Much like a pistol, the best approach depends greatly on which direction you’re running, where the 180 is with respect to that, and how long your sprint is.

[NervousEnergy]

This is an area where I really wish a few top instructors would get in the PCC class game.  There are multiple opportunities here in DFW every year to take competition pistol classes from the best in the business, where you can really commit the time to figuring out (with an expert helping you) things like shooting positions, movement, stage approach, etc.  I've taken one and it was worth every penny and then some (Ben Stoeger).  

 

A 2 day PCC class of the same quality as what Stoeger, Racaza, etc. offer for pistol would sell out in minutes here.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

When I have to cover a significant distance to my weak side I usually let go of the grip and continue to hold the handguard with my weak hand, pointing it downrange.  May not be the most efficient way to do it, but it makes breaking the 180m nearly impossible.

[Ming the Merciless]

3 hours ago, LowSpeedHighDrag said:

When I have to cover a significant distance to my weak side I usually let go of the grip and continue to hold the handguard with my weak hand, pointing it downrange.  May not be the most efficient way to do it, but it makes breaking the 180m nearly impossible.

 

I do something similar.  I keep my weak hand (left hand) grip on the handguard, lay the buttstock on top of my weak arm with my elbow bent and let go of the grip.  With the bent arm cradling the carbine I can run hard, pumping with the strong arm, while keeping the muzzle pointed directly downrange.

[vgdvc]

11 hours ago, p7fl said:

Been shooting Single Stack or Production since they were introduced. Step, step, reload. My home club also is space limited so the monthly match had limited movement.

 

Just SBR’d my Colt for PCC and the first match was the most fun I’ve had in years, has me excited again about shooting.

 

 

So much to learn. Shooting AR’s for long time but never under the clock and never with sprints.

 

My natural instinct is to drop the rifle to my dominant hand and hip and then run. What I am seeing posted on videos is:

 

Shooters keeping both hands on the rifle when moving.

 

Lifting the buttstock above their shoulders when moving.

 

Or last just lowering the stock and rifle 2 or 3 inches off their shoulder but still in front.

 

 

 

I get that not having to raise the rifle from a low position gets you ready faster when you hit your spot, but after that is it situational?

 

Or is their one definite faster place or way to hold a rifle and move?

 

DVC

jon

YouTube search "Josh Froelich PCC" he has a couple of videos put out by himself and some under Federal that  have some good basics of PCC movement  to and from/into and out of positions.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

1 hour ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

I do something similar.  I keep my weak hand (left hand) grip on the handguard, lay the buttstock on top of my weak arm with my elbow bent and let go of the grip.  With the bent arm cradling the carbine I can run hard, pumping with the strong arm, while keeping the muzzle pointed directly downrange.

 

Hmmm, seems like a better way of doing it...

[Smithcity]

Adding to the conversation:

Depending on how your club sets up walls, you will likely need to move the gun to a weak shoulder and maybe weak hand to engage targets with a wall on your weak side. Most situations of this sort that Ive encountered were scenarios where a pistol shooter could shoot it normally with 2 hands on a gun with a hard lean, pcc is forced to go weak shoulder. Ive watched lots of pcc shooters take said walls with the gun on the strong side, waste a bunch of time struggling to get a sight picture while contorting their bodies, or eventually realizing they need to go weak shoulder, by that time theyve waisted 5s+. I.e. A different mode of stage breakdown is required for pcc vs pistol

 

As others mentioned, hope you have a good grip, plenty of times where I drop the gun to my strong hand and sprint.

 

Lastly, on retreats, you can execute a much quicker retreat after engaging an array if you grab the top of the rail with your weak hand such that the barrel stays pointed down range while your body faces up range. Allows you to safely execute a fast and hard retreat. I dont recommend you try this in a match untill youve practiced it in dry fire dozens of times and are comfortable with the gun handling and movement. I have videos I could share demonstrating, not sure if the enos accepts them, Im not a youtuber.

 

Everything is situational, and what works well for one person may not for another. Whats most important, no matter how you do your movement, the gun needs to have 2 hands on it, shouldered as you get into your shooting position, if you are doing this once you are in a shooting position its to late. You should already have the gun up and gaining the required sight picture for the difficulty of targets you are about to engage while your feet finish getting into position. 

[Flatland Shooter]

10 hours ago, NervousEnergy said:

This is an area where I really wish a few top instructors would get in the PCC class game. 

 

A 2 day PCC class of the same quality as what Stoeger, Racaza, etc. offer for pistol would sell out in minutes here.

 

A good PCC class would also do well here in the Houston area.

[Smithcity]

Seems the dropbox might work.

 

Retreat 1:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7ilz345fc4r026/Stage 3 V Shot.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/osjmotqqwf9ipbg/Stage 3 V Shot FPV.mp4?dl=0

 

Retreat 2:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2svrdfwi8k172gc/Stage 4 - High Point.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gaxhh0pdeune2ez/Stage 4 - High Point - FPV.mp4?dl=0

 

Moving laterally dropping to strong hand (SBR): 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdpin08zww8c7gk/VID_20170708_113517056.mp4?dl=0

[RaylanGivens]

Dropbox worked fine!  Thanks for uploading the videos.

 

I noticed in the last video that you point the rifle forward more as you run...  Was that a conscious effort because you knew the next targets were in front of you or do you always carry it like that?

 

[Smithcity]

2 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

Dropbox worked fine!  Thanks for uploading the videos.

 

I noticed in the last video that you point the rifle forward more as you run...  Was that a conscious effort because you knew the next targets were in front of you or do you always carry it like that?

 

2fold. Just like pistol, moving to your weak side your muzzle tends to point more in that direction, hence all the guys that get dqd for breaking the 180 while reloading on a weak side run.

 

And yes, position your body and gun towards what you are about to engage.

[JGT]

Thanks for the videos! I'd love to see more people posting their match or training footage to illustrate what they are saying. The retreat with weak hand on the rail and barrel pointed uprange while you run the other way makes complete sense. Max Leograndis has a video with the same technique.

 

I would also love to see more PCC classes. Given the growth in the division I'd say there is a market, and the movement / problem solving is sufficiently different to pistol that it really needs a dedicated class.

[ABQautoxer]

TPC teaches PCC along side their pistol class. After having shot against Brian Nelson at a local match while he was passing through, I know he could teach me everything I need to know. 

 

https://classes.tacticalperformancecenter.com/calendar/

 

Downside in my case is the time commitment/location is difficult this year. Hopefully there will be other opportunities like you guys are discussing. My movement is 10x better than when I started but to me I still look like super slow-mo in video.

[TonytheTiger]

Did a little PCC movement practice today, tried a few different techniques. For retreats, just dragging the gun behind me strong hand is fastest but it feels weirdly out of control, like because I can't see the gun and I know it's flailing around back there I must be breaking 180. I'll get used to it though.

 

[2Alphamikenoshoot]

A 2 day PCC class of the same quality as what Stoeger, Racaza, etc. offer for pistol would sell out in minutes here.


There’s plenty of carbine and rifle instructors out there. Maybe not competition specific but all the dynamics and ergonomics can be applied.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[2Alphamikenoshoot]

When I have to cover a significant distance to my weak side I usually let go of the grip and continue to hold the handguard with my weak hand, pointing it downrange.  May not be the most efficient way to do it, but it makes breaking the 180m nearly impossible.

Lunchbox method. Or the reverse lunchbox grabbing the hand guard with your strong hand if it’s a retreat stage. Cover a lot of ground quickly and most importantly safely keeling barre downrange


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[p7fl]

OP here.

Good responses and insights. Unlike pistols responses clearly indicate more Situational than pistols. Still looking for ways to practice keeping the rifle up and ready to quickly shoot when i hit my spot.

Finding the spot is harder than with a pistol (anyone agree?) and then I don't want to move the rifle up or down more than 2-3 inches.

Emailed with Kyle Lamb: he likes the one hand and pumping arms to get the next position. I've done a few rifle classes with him but before PCC. Going to request he adds some PPC to a November class.

I have never seen a 180 going weak side, but now clearly will be aware. Running back with one hand on the rifle looks smart and quick, will add that to toolbox.

jon

Met and chatted with a motion Dr. She indicates age is NOT a factor. I am 70 in excellent shape and she indicates that if i want the fast sprints of long ago, just practice them. There is no physical reason why 70 can't stay with 20 other than train :-).

Edited May 5, 2019 by p7fl
added

[Smithcity]

31 minutes ago, p7fl said:

Finding the spot is harder than with a pistol (anyone agree?)

 

Nope, that cant be true. Im regularly told how much easier pcc is than pistol. Nevermind the minor scoring, harder to manipulate, more combersome to move through tight spots and walls, etc...

 

Joking aside. Sometimes finding spots is harder, at minimum its not the same as finding spots with pistol. 

[egd5]

"There is no physical reason why 70 can't stay with 20 other than train :-). "

 

I call big time bs on this. I'm almost 70 too. Training will definitely help, but unless it's a klutsy 20 yr old, I don't buy it.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

11 hours ago, p7fl said:

Met and chatted with a motion Dr. She indicates age is NOT a factor. I am 70 in excellent shape and she indicates that if i want the fast sprints of long ago, just practice them. There is no physical reason why 70 can't stay with 20 other than train :-).

 

No way.  Training cannot fix age-related physical deterioration and injuries.  I know what I could do 50 years ago, and no way I could do that today, no matter how much I trained.

See many 70 year olds playing professional football or baseball?  There's a reason...

[Smithcity]

With regards to this age discussion. Maybe you all havent considered that we live in different times now. We should all identify as 25yrs old, then we will be the same age and of equal physical ability.