Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
MJinPA

Handling squib situation as RO

Recommended Posts

A couple of weeks ago I had 2 shooters with squib/suspected squib. Shooter 1, I did not stop. Was watching the gun and did not see/hear anything different. He stopped himself. Turned out he had one stuck....Shooter 2, I stopped. Seemed pretty clear as the slide barely moved and pop was a puff. With both shooters, after verifying they were clear per normal ulsc procedure I sent them to the safe table. #1 did have one in the barrel but surprisingly (to us both) #2 did not. After looking at 5.7.7 I’m wondering if I should have field stripped both firearms to confirm or not? I’ve been an RO for a couple of years but this is my first time running into squib issues (2 in one squad!) 3d5e8e17a7d8d878e3583c50a59e5118.jpg

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just carry a zip tie in your back pocket and stick it the barrel through the chamber. No need to field strip the gun .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just carry a zip tie in your back pocket and stick it the barrel through the chamber. No need to field strip the gun .

Gotta love the simplest solutions! That makes it easy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is a squib how are you going to zip tie the slide back?

 

I can see using it as a make shift chamber flag. However I am failing to see how you could use to to lock the slide like at the gun show. In the scenario above, the squib round would be stuck in the barrel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Laxman2809 said:

If there is a squib how are you going to zip tie the slide back?

 

I can see using it as a make shift chamber flag. However I am failing to see how you could use to to lock the slide like at the gun show. In the scenario above, the squib round would be stuck in the barrel.

Using the zip tie to just see if there is a squib.  If a squib exists the gun goes off the range to get repaired.  No squib then reshoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Laxman2809 said:

If there is a squib how are you going to zip tie the slide back?

 

I can see using it as a make shift chamber flag. However I am failing to see how you could use to to lock the slide like at the gun show. In the scenario above, the squib round would be stuck in the barrel.

OMG! You really missed the meaning!😂

A zip tie just lets you confirm a squib from the chamber end instead of the muzzle end. If the zip tie will not poke out the muzzle then there is a squib. Holster and go fix it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not just lock the slide back and run a pen or pencil down the barrel?

 

i get the whole idea of a zip tie, but that’s just one more thing for me to remember to bring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, CSEMARTIN said:

Why not just lock the slide back and run a pen or pencil down the barrel?

 

i get the whole idea of a zip tie, but that’s just one more thing for me to remember to bring.

 

how will you do that without sticking your fingers in front of the muzzle?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

how will you do that without sticking your fingers in front of the muzzle?  

 

If the slide is locked back, magazine is out and no round in the chamber, is it a big deal to slide a pencil down the barrel? I get where you’re coming from. Maybe you could hold the pencil with something other than your fingers? I carry a multi-tool in my bag. 

 

Im not sure on how the rules apply to what I’m suggesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CSEMARTIN said:

If the slide is locked back, magazine is out and no round in the chamber, is it a big deal to slide a pencil down the barrel? I get where you’re coming from. Maybe you could hold the pencil with something other than your fingers? I carry a multi-tool in my bag. 

 

Im not sure on how the rules apply to what I’m suggesting.

 

there are no exemptions for sweeping while checking for a squib.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

there are no exemptions for sweeping while checking for a squib.  

The only exemption for sweeping is 10.5.5.1, but rule 10.5.5 specifically states “during a course of fire”. Does the definition of sweeping change when the course of fire is over?

10.5.6 refers to a “loaded firearm”. What happens if the pistol is unloaded? Certainly a pistol with the slide locked back, magazine out, chamber empty would not meet the definition of a loaded firearm.

 

Im not sure the rules are clear cut on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds to me like this zip tie idea is the best way around all this nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

there are no exemptions for sweeping while checking for a squib.  

Quote

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

 

"Stop, unload and show clear.  If clear, hammer down and holster.  Range is clear"  The course of fire is now over

 

Now you can look down the freaking bore if you want to.

Edited by elguapo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

"Stop, unload and show clear.  If clear, hammer down and holster.  Range is clear"  The course of fire is now over

 

Now you can look down the freaking bore if you want to.

I don’t agree. You can be DQed at a safe table for sweeping. You can also be DQed for sweeping with PCC at any time

Edited by Sarge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I don’t agree. You can be DQed at a safe table for sweeping. You can also be DQed for sweeping with PCC at any time

 

The rule on this appears to be open to interpretation.  The language of "during a course of fire" or "loaded firearm" makes me wonder if these rules apply when the course of fire is over or the gun is unloaded.  Language such as "at any time" would make more sense to me.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I don’t agree. You can be DQed at a safe table for sweeping. You can also be DQed for sweeping with PCC at any time

I did not know of these rules, but appreciate you sharing them with us. I will keep that in mind when I go to a sanctioned match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The specific rule regarding PCC states that you can be DQ'd at ANY time for sweeping.  I expect if one were to ask Troy this thinking would be extended to include all guns.  

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I don’t agree. You can be DQed at a safe table for sweeping. You can also be DQed for sweeping with PCC at any time

 

I'm curious about which rules apply to the situations you mention, except for the PCC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

The specific rule regarding PCC states that you can be DQ'd at ANY time for sweeping.  I expect if one were to ask Troy this thinking would be extended to include all guns. 

 

 

That would be his opinion and not an official rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

That would be his opinion and not an official rule.


Who said it was an official rule?  "I expect" makes it perfectly clear that it is an opinion.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, CSEMARTIN said:

The rule on this appears to be open to interpretation.  The language of "during a course of fire" or "loaded firearm" makes me wonder if these rules apply when the course of fire is over or the gun is unloaded

 

I disagree.  10.5.5 clearly states in no uncertain terms that sweeping someone during the course of fire is a DQ'able offense.  It says nothing about before and after the course of fire and no creative reading of the English language could come up with an interpretation to the contrary.

 

And on top of that the beginning and end of the course of fire are both clearly defined in the rule book.

 

Long story short: sweeping someone with a handgun can only occur between the time that the RO utters "make ready" and "range is clear".  Not before, and not after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

It says nothing about before and after the course of fire 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you.  That's why I mentioned the "during  a course of fire" and "loaded firearm" verbiage from the rulebook.  If the course of fire is over and the firearm is no longer loaded, is it still considered sweeping if you are checking the barrel for a squib?

 

This type of situation could conceivably lead to an argument or disagreement with match staff on how the rules are interpreted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A quick glance shows some contradictions and holes in the rules.

 Sweeping in the glossary makes no mention of during a COF. Also, rules regarding safety area clearly says gun must point in safe direction. 

 I have seen guns go off in a safety area so  we can’t just lean on “unloaded”. Because there really is no such thing as an unloaded gun unless YOU look in the chamber. But even then you still never point a gun(sweep)at another person.

  I believe the DQ in a safety area could be a gray area but I have seen it happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be really surprised to hear of anyone being DQ'd for using a squib rod in the safety area, regardless of the rule language/interpretation. I'd argue that rules need space to safely repair a firearm and should be interpreted to permit that.

10.5.5 (sweeping) clearly says during the course of fire.
10.5.19 is PCC only.
10.5.20 says course of fire must be over to clear a squib. (repeated guidance in 5.7.2.1)

So pistols are pretty straight forward: clear your squibs after the course of fire in the safety area.

Regarding PCC,  I would argue that 10.5.19 is about handling the gun before and after the course of fire because it is specifically directed at casing/uncasing or moving the PCC from a rack/cart. The sweeping language is to take care of situations where there's somebody between the berm, where the gun should be pointed, and the shooter.

Quote

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.


IANAL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the problem with the rules for unsafe gun handling is that 10.5 starts with “Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:” which implies that doing anything blatantly unsafe should be a DQ. But then, we’re expected to be able to justify every DQ with a specific rule from that section. 

 

I’m trying to come up with an example of something that’s indisputably unsafe gun handling but isn’t already listed in that section. Everything I can think of is either already covered or up for debate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...