Can you DQ an RO?

[Diver123]

I witnessed a situation the other day in my squad so this is first hand knowledge. The RO tells shooter to make ready. Shooter pulls gun out of holster places gun on barrel as this is an unloaded start. RO on the score pad starts talking about a target that looks unrestored. So both RO's go walking away towards the target looking for a hole. I immediately start calling to them whoa, hey, no what are you doing you cant walk away from the shooter their gun is out. These two fools were oblivious! I was literally shouting at them as they walked off. They didn't even say anything to the shooter. I wish I could say this was the last dumb move of the day but it wasn't. This time I was the shooter. I shoot pcc. I was loaded and ready to go when a piece of steel falls over. Windy day. So the RO running me says muzzle up. I pretty much ignored that and just unloaded and showed clear, then flagged my pcc. While explaining to him that I would rather just unload because its much safer. Not to mention I would of had a loaded fire arm pointing "up" past the 180, and someone down range. I just don't get it. Did the stupid stick hit them on the way in? Seriously these two shouldn't be allowed to RO making the decisions they were making that day.  

[Matt1]

Area 6?


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[Sarge]

RO should have had pistol guy reholster unloaded gun then go downrange or better yet have somebody else go fix target. If they walked in front of muzzle then I’d call that a DQ probably. If they didn’t walk in front of muzzle then they just need retraining.

  PCC really has no choice but to unload.

  I tend to not jump to calling people stupid. Especially when they are making it possible for the rest of us to just show up and shoot.

 I hope this wasn’t a major match. Hopefully a local with possibly new RO.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If they walked in front of muzzle then I’d call that a DQ probably. 

 

A skim though the 10.xx section of my 2014 rulebook did not show me that this would be a dq. Most likely I missed something. 

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

A skim though the 10.xx section of my 2014 rulebook did not show me that this would be a dq. Most likely I missed something. 

Well they would sweep themselves...

Edited April 22, 2019 by Sarge

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Well they would sweep themselves...

 

Which is a bad thing, but all I saw was 10.5.5 which seems to apply only to "the competitor".

 

Sweeping yourself as an r.o. with an unloaded gun on a barrel is a bad thing during a match, but the push back I would expect to hear is that it is probably quite a bit safer than walking through any gun store and sweeping yourself by walking in front of 10's or 100's of unloaded guns. Not trying to say it is not a bad thing, but it is easy to understand why many folks would not get excited about it. 

[ChuckS]

RM is responsible for match official's behavior. See Section 7.2

 

ETA: Talk to the RM. If you get nowhere there, work up the chain of command. SC/AD NROI

Edited April 22, 2019 by ChuckS

[Sarge]

33 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Which is a bad thing, but all I saw was 10.5.5 which seems to apply only to "the competitor".

 

Sweeping yourself as an r.o. with an unloaded gun on a barrel is a bad thing during a match, but the push back I would expect to hear is that it is probably quite a bit safer than walking through any gun store and sweeping yourself by walking in front of 10's or 100's of unloaded guns. Not trying to say it is not a bad thing, but it is easy to understand why many folks would not get excited about it. 

When I read 10.5.5 I don’t read it as competitor only. It just says sweeping

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person’s body
during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). If the RO is swept, the Range Master must be called to determine if it was RO interference or a DQ.

[Derrick-508]

I am curious on the sweeping discussion and would like to hear other opinions on this matter.  "Sweeping" in the glossary is: "Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference."  in this case an unloaded firearm is neither "while holding it in the hands" or "Placing" or "Removing" - it is placed.... so no sweeping?

[DKorn]

Talk to the RM (or MD if at a level 1 match and the MD is also acting as RM). If that doesn’t get you anywhere, there’s an official incident report form that you fill out with the MD/RM and have them submit to NROI. NROI will then determine what disciplinary action (if any) is necessary.

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Derrick-508 said:

I am curious on the sweeping discussion and would like to hear other opinions on this matter.  "Sweeping" in the glossary is: "Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference."  in this case an unloaded firearm is neither "while holding it in the hands" or "Placing" or "Removing" - it is placed.... so no sweeping?

 

I would agree with this in practice, but it isn’t covered in the rules. IMO, an empty gun sitting on a barrel is no more dangerous than an empty gun riding around in a holster or range bag. 

 

Im going to have to go with DQ, in a grey area, that could have been easily avoided. 

[jcc7x7]

Poor practice at best

[broadside72]

If this is the situation I am aware of, there was no sweeping as gun was pointed downrange and target was off to far right and closest to the rear fault line. ROs did not walk in front of the gun.

From the glossary it is not sweeping (defined as while in hands or placing on or picking up from object). Since this was an unloaded start, is it any different than an unattended gun on a safe table?

Could it have been handled better? Possibly. Was it a violation of rules? Not that I'm aware, unless RM\MD wants to make it an issue using their discretion option.

[motosapiens]

lol @ dq-ing someone for getting swept by someone else's gun.

[bishop414]

Agree with first part, poor RO'ing.

However, you failed to listen to the command of the RO with Muzzle up in the second example.  Yes, your choice to unload, but its a waste of time.  There is nothing "unsafe" with that command.  RO can maintain control of the shooter while 2nd RO or other resets the fallen steel.  Major matches, you do not have time to unload and reload, especially when the elements are hitting.

[IHAVEGAS]

48 minutes ago, bishop414 said:

Major matches, you do not have time to unload and reload, especially when the elements are hitting.

 

Hmmm, did not sit right with me at first but now I am thinking of some matches with 2 speed shoots in the same bay. Often you need to do what you can to make the 2 shoot bay not be a bottle neck so the shooter stays hot moving from one stage to the next. 

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Hmmm, did not sit right with me at first but now I am thinking of some matches with 2 speed shoots in the same bay. Often you need to do what you can to make the 2 shoot bay not be a bottle neck so the shooter stays hot moving from one stage to the next. 

but people don't go downrange of the shooter.

 

I would say it the opposite of bishop414. At a local match, I don't stress about having the shooter keep his hands away from his loaded gun under RO supervision while someone runs down to tape a target or pick up the popper that the wind just knocked over.  But at a major match, where everyone is amped up and more serious and has more at stake (i.e. more reason to whine later), i prefer to go by the book and have the shooter unload and show clear before sending someone downrange. I think that is more fair to the shooter as well, because then he can start over with his normal routine instead of having to pick up again in the middle. For many folks, a normal routine is an important part of making ready to shoot at their best.

[pskys2]

Sure an RO can be DQ'd if they are handling a firearm.  

Sounds like inexperience hopefully they learned after you educated them.

Though NOT walking down range from a firearm sounds like a no-brainer?  If one can see the muzzle I'd hope they have pucker problems.

[DKorn]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

but people don't go downrange of the shooter.

 

I would say it the opposite of bishop414. At a local match, I don't stress about having the shooter keep his hands away from his loaded gun under RO supervision while someone runs down to tape a target or pick up the popper that the wind just knocked over.  But at a major match, where everyone is amped up and more serious and has more at stake (i.e. more reason to whine later), i prefer to go by the book and have the shooter unload and show clear before sending someone downrange. I think that is more fair to the shooter as well, because then he can start over with his normal routine instead of having to pick up again in the middle. For many folks, a normal routine is an important part of making ready to shoot at their best.

 

I’d have the shooter unload at either, but that’s just my preference.

 

Last major I RO’d (couple weekends ago) we had a similar situation. I was on the tablet and noticed an unpasted target right after the timer RO said make ready. Don’t know how I saw it, sun must’ve caught it just right. Anyway, I said stop, he had the shooter unload and show clear and then looked at me. I told him about the target, we dealt with it, and then we started over from make ready. 

 

I think any time that you’re going to do something unusual after giving the make ready command, you should have the shooter unload and show clear and start over from make ready. It prevents far more potential problems than it causes. I can think of a lot of scenarios leading to unsafe situations, potential DQs, or stupid arguments that are completely eliminated by having the shooter unload and show clear. Remember that as long as you’re between make ready and range is clear, everything that happens is “during the COF”. 

 

Also, take a look at part of 8.3.8 Range is Clear. “Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets, etc.” 

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

Just because someone has taken and passed the RO certification course/test doesn't make them a "Good" RO. ROing effectively is a practiced skill no different than shooting. You also need to understand that just like shooting, no matter how much someone "Wants" to get better, without the proper effort and dedication to actually get better you will still suck. RO's also need to accept the fact that they are expected to do the job competently and if they are not willing to do that then they shouldn't volunteer to do the job.

 

Luckily I have only run into totally incompetent RO's a few times while attending major matches. In the first instance I made them call the Range Master, then explained the incompetence scenario to the RM and requested replacement RO's to be assigned to the stage. In that scenario the RM took over running the stage as the CRO while working with the existing RO's to not only show them the proper way of doing the job but also observe their issues first hand. The RO's for this stage were replaced later in the match. I can only assume that was done because they didn't "Get it" when the RM was babysitting them.

 

In the second instance when the RM got to the stage and after explaining the situation he stated that there were no more RO's to replace the ones we already had. I told him that I was a certified CRO and asked if I could RO the remainder of the squad to show the RO's how it should be done. He agreed and it worked out for the rest of our squad and hopefully it was a good learning experience for the RO's. I am not sure what happened with that stage after my squad left but I was at least trying to be part of a solution to the problem instead of doing nothing but whining about it.

[Derrick-508]

 
I would agree with this in practice, but it isn’t covered in the rules. IMO, an empty gun sitting on a barrel is no more dangerous than an empty gun riding around in a holster or range bag. 
 
Im going to have to go with DQ, in a grey area, that could have been easily avoided. 

HCH! Thanks for your opinion. I believe I would as well.


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[Schutzenmeister]

 

On 4/22/2019 at 7:27 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

A skim though the 10.xx section of my 2014 rulebook did not show me that this would be a dq. Most likely I missed something. 

 

- 2014 is NOT the current rule book … Try 2019

 

- 10.5.5 (HG Rules) comes close, but I would agree you cannot DQ the RO as described in the OP using this rule. The RM needs to get involved.

 

- However … If this were a MG Match, I strongly suggest you read the MG 10.5.4 … It reads differently (based on inattentive folks having done dumb things during MG matches.)

[CSEMARTIN]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:49 AM, bishop414 said:

However, you failed to listen to the command of the RO with Muzzle up in the second example.  Yes, your choice to unload, but its a waste of time.  There is nothing "unsafe" with that command.  

How is that command safe? 

[broadside72]

HCH! Thanks for your opinion. I believe I would as well.


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Under what rule would you DQ the RO?

No one was swept and the gun was not handled while the ROs were inspecting the target (off to the far right no where forward of the muzzle).

[Diver123]

The gun wasn't handled but it easily could have been. As the shooter was given the make ready command. They could have picked the gun up taken a sight picture etc. Their was no one with them. Yes they were forward of the muzzle. Down range of the shooters gun is forward of the muzzle. Its sloppy, lazy, and sets a very bad example.