p7fl Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Dumbed out and forgot to step into shooting area on beep. 2 Paper to the right and 2 to the left. The first step was just to move over the line...fired 8 shots, no advantage, but according to 10.2.1 etc--it is still 8 shots and I dinged myself for 8 procedurals. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Can't wait to hear the answer to this one. Obviously, in the spirit of shooting a match for fun, since there is "no advantage", there Should Be only a single procedural …. But … well, let's wait and see The Correct Answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaJim Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 If you're stepping forward into the shooting area closer to the targets then it would be only one procedural. There's no competitive advantage by the shooter if he chooses to shoot from a position that is further away from the array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I'd think being able to shoot targets sooner is a competitive advantage.10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantageSent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaJim Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) 10.2.1.2 I also would say that IF the shooter has advantage when he shoots from behind the shooting area even if his step is forward will be one shot per. EG: If the target arrays are better seen from behind the shooting area... It all depends on IF the shooter has an advantage by shooting from the out of Shooting Area position. Edited April 21, 2019 by WaJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaJim Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, robchavous said: I'd think being able to shoot targets sooner is a competitive advantage. 10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Most shooters step forward and draw simultaneously.... Rule reads significant advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Most shooters step forward and draw simultaneously.... Rule reads significant advantage.The rule reads if you shoot with both feet out that you have gained a significant advantage. This was a change in the new rules where they have actually defined a significant advantageSent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Sometimes (always) it helps to read the whole rule. Please note that 10.2.1.2 mentions "re-establish", meaning the shooter had been IN, then was fully OUT and needs to re-establish IN before firing shots. In that scenario, yes, one per shot.. 10.2.1.3 appears to be more relevant here. Unless shooting from outside provided a significant advantage (doubtful in most cases I would think) only one procedural would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Both feet outside the shooting area, one procedural per shot. If the 4 targets were all that were available from that spot the max number of procedurals would be 8 for this infraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 33 minutes ago, George Jones said: Sometimes (always) it helps to read the whole rule. Please note that 10.2.1.2 mentions "re-establish", meaning the shooter had been IN, then was fully OUT and needs to re-establish IN before firing shots. In that scenario, yes, one per shot.. Here is the full text of 10.2.1.2: 10.2.1.2 A shooter who fires shots while completely outside (both feet out and touching the ground) a shooting area is deemed to have gained a significant advantage and will be given one penalty for each shot fired until presence is re-established in a shooting area. Having at least one foot in a shooting area and nothing touching outside the shooting area is required to re-establish presence in a shooting area. _______________ George: Do you recall why 10.2.1.2 was written to exclude a scenario where the start position is outside the shooting area (and a shooter starts firing before either foot is in the shooting area)? I don't see how that's any different than a shooter moving from one shooting area to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Yeah, I've always thought re-establish is the relevant portion of the text of the rule, if the presence in the shooting area has not been first established then it should be as if they were faulting (one procedural or one per if considered significant, not automatically significant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) 10.2.1.3 states that 10.2.1.2 does not apply in this situation. The only thing that applies is is it a significant advantage or not? Edited April 21, 2019 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) I don't know "why" it was changed (above my paygrade). However, as written it still applies to a situation where the shooter was IN and has to re-establish IN before firing. If you start OUT (not yet IN) 10.2.1.2 does not apply. 10.2.1.3 does. The above is my opinion. You know who to go to if you disagree. Edited April 21, 2019 by George Jones Fat finger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 10.2.1.3 applies but significant advantage needs to be addressed (per the rule) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklab2011 Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 I always find these situations interesting. My struggle is defining what is an advantage or significant advantage. Ask 10 RO's you will get 10 different answers. Subjectivity and variation of interpretation by RO causes most issues in these situations and is not the same for all shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, blacklab2011 said: I always find these situations interesting. My struggle is defining what is an advantage or significant advantage. Ask 10 RO's you will get 10 different answers. Subjectivity and variation of interpretation by RO causes most issues in these situations and is not the same for all shooters. Well if the shooter can see more targets or more of a target then that is a significant advantage. So the stage design will determine. It is also in the glossary Any position assumed while faulting that provides: • A greater view of a target or target array, i.e., seeing all of the array versus only one or two targets, or more of a target behind an obscuring no-shoot or wall • A closer (more than 3 feet) shot at a target, especially if the target is partially obscured with a no-shoot or hard cover • Less physical positioning, i.e., lean, around or over a wall or barrier • A more stable position, such as stepping off of a moving platform or narrow beam onto the ground, provided that the object in question has been marked as a shooting area • Having both feet outside of a shooting area and firing shots (10.2.1.2) • Stability by bracing on a wall or barrier outside of the fault lines Note: These are some examples and are not intended to illustrate all possible cases of significant advantage Edited May 9, 2019 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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