Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!
Sign in to follow this  
ozzy1038

Para P14.45 Allowed In Esp?

Recommended Posts

Hey all, I currently shoot XD-40 for my ESP gun. I recently purchased a P14

and I thought I might like shooting that in ESP since I love the 1911 trigger and feel, and I like how well I shoot my Springer in CDP. Anyway I have been told by some that it isn't allowed, but I see nothing in the rules that disallows it. I e-mailed IDPA but have yet to receive an official response. So what do you guys think? Great site by the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rule book says the follwing for ESP

B. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.

I think that says it all. And, the power floor for ESP is 125, so you can change your load to fit that also.

Later,

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's pretty much what I figured. I shoot matches that are mostly unsanctioned due to the clubs'/ranges' disagreement on the new rules. So while they allow things that are currently not allowed, they may not allow what is now allowed.

If not oh well, a limited 10 gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Para has been allowed longer than the new rules have been in effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought ESP was for single action pistols in any caliber EXCEPT 45, which is CDP. I don't think I have seen anyone trying to shoot ESP with a 45 in minor.

Interesting question though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The rule book says the follwing for ESP

B. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.

I think that says it all. And, the power floor for ESP is 125, so you can change your load to fit that also.

Later,

Chuck

it also list the weight including an empty magazine at 43oz.

Para lists the weight at 40oz , unknown wether that is w/wo a mag.

on the surface , it appears to be legal for ESP.

CDP would be questionable , again because of the weight issue (41oz max with mag.).

my 2 cents

MP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, that would sense, BAN the P-14 Para .45, one of the most common, readily available defensive handguns out there, from CDP. :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought ESP was for single action pistols in any caliber EXCEPT 45, which is CDP. I don't think I have seen anyone trying to shoot ESP with a 45 in minor.

Interesting question though...

FWIW, I saw a guy shooting SSP with a Para LDA in .45 minor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I can tell from the new (3rd revision in period of 2 weeks, effective 4/15/05) of the rulebook it would be fine provided all other criteria for ESP is met (weight/box limits)

I would suggest reloading a 185/180 gr head to around 725-740 fps (anything slower and it can be seen and that can be distracting while shooting) for a 134-138 PF. It would seem to give the maximun advantage in the division (biggest surface area for scoring and slowest slide speed for easy sight tracking).

I have and older STI 5.1 Eagle in .45 that needs a barrel replacement (has a Bull now) to be IDPA legal for both CDP and ESP and am considering it's revival into the "games". It's just the componenents are more expensive for reloading than .40 and 9mm.

126 mm tubes Dawson/Arendondo international base pads (10 rnd with ease) with a 1.625" max exterior mag well and you have a "racer".

My only issue (a personal thing, I shoot a .40 STI in ESP) is slide speed, I prefer em on the fast side but considering the potential for the .45 Para's and STI/SV widebodys in ESP I'm truely amazed that we don't see more of them in the IDPA arena.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Para meets all the requirements, it weights 40oz w/ an empty mag, same size as my single stack Springer except a little wider. I've got some 200gr swc that I have loaded to 650fps making a power factor of 130+. I shoot well with my XD but the extra weight and length of a 1911 style gun is a nice advantage.

I too have seen a .45 shot in ssp albeit it was a Sig. I'm hoping that when IDPA gets back to me that it will help change the MD's mind. If not there are two ranges besides that, that I shoot IDPA at that may allow it. My thinking is that if it gives me no unfair advantage then what's the problem? Besides, I see people shooting glocks w/ lightened slides. I have also seen compensators used, and at one of the matches, ironically enough it is the sanctioned one they allow XD in SSP, go figure. So it seems kind of weird how some things that are blatantly against the rules are allowed and others that seem to fall within the rules aren't allowed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
it seems kind of weird how some things that are blatantly against the rules are allowed and others that seem to fall within the rules aren't allowed.

This is called "Rule of the Day" or ROTD and is very common. If you are interested in shooting IDPA it's best to recognize that you will continue to see it and not let it upset you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is called "Rule of the Day" or ROTD and is very common.  If you are interested in shooting IDPA it's best to recognize that you will continue to see it and not let it upset you.

It doesn't upset me, it's just strange that I can shoot my Springer which was ported from the factory (v12). Albeit I had to put an unported barrel in, but I think it would fall under the slide lightening rule. Yet I can't shoot my .45 in ESP. Don't get me wrong I am not mad or upset. It's just interesting. Now if IDPA would only e-mail me back that would be great, it's been almost a week. Maybe they don't even know.:lol:

Happy Shooting!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ROTD often depends on where you shoot, the club leadership, RO/MD rule interpretations and whether or not they decide they like you. Welcome to IDPA. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK: enough IDPA bashing.

The problem here is that an MD for an un-affiliated club doesn't know the rules and told ozzy1038 that he couldn't use the P14 in ESP, which is wrong.

Vincent, pisgarifle: how is that IDPA's fault?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK: enough IDPA bashing.

The problem here is that an MD for an un-affiliated club doesn't know the rules and told ozzy1038 that he couldn't use the P14 in ESP, which is wrong.

Vincent, pisgarifle: how is that IDPA's fault?

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shoot a P14.45 in IDPA, too.

I had no idea there was a .45 Minor. With the 230 grain bullets I shoot, I'd need to go to the surplus store and mount a mortar sight on the gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vincent, pisgarifle: how is that IDPA's fault?---

I thought both Vincent and pisgarifle were relating their personal experiences within IDPA, to ozzy1038. I saw it as them letting him know what to expect should ozzy1038 decide to join IDPA. I don't think they were blaming IDPA, rather they were explaining how things are in IDPA (I could be wrong).

It is very difficult to explain to a new shooter that their equipment may or may not be legal depending on which SO you talk to.

Respectfully,

jkelly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is very difficult to explain to a new shooter that their equipment may or may not be legal depending on which SO you talk to.

Respectfully,

jkelly

You'd run into that in any sport in which the officials don't read the rule book. As long as the P14 makes weight and fits in the box, it's legal in ESP and CDP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I received confirmation from IDPA headquarters that 45 was allowed in ESP.

It makes sense, fits the rules, and provides no real advantage - but The anti-gaming crowd gets very worked up over things that seem like they might give an adantage.

Anyway, IDPA and the rules both seem to indicate that it is ok.

My problem has been loading a 45 minor load that won't hang up under rapid fire.

Each time I approach the 130 pf range I start getting failures to feed.

Regards,

Slipped

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My problem has been loading a 45 minor load that won't hang up under rapid fire.

Each time I approach the 130 pf range I start getting failures to feed.

Good luck with that one. Most the guys I know trying to go to 125pf for a .45 caliber ESP gun end up around 140 pf too keep it reliable.

I could get a S&W .45 down to 125pf with 185 grain bullets but it was a compact. The full size guns choked on that load.

Ted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps you could try dropping your recoil spring a lb or two, Or maybe your main spring the same.

Respectfully,

jkelly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 on the recoil spring experiment. I shot a P-16 with 155 gr bullets at a PF of about 135 and a 12# recoil spring. The slide/barrel of my P-16 is not much different than your P-14. In fact, it should be a tad heavier since the bore is 0.05" bigger!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Precision bullets has the 185 gr moly coat heads (black bullet) at minor PF (135 range) that's 730 fps, (can you say "mouse phart"?). Might be nice to have that extra bullet dia working for ya.

17# mainspring and a 10-11 # variable power recoil spring should work fine and slide speed should be close to a 230 moving at maj. PF, just with a lot less muzzle rise.

I did the math once on the amount of down -0- scoring area increase as bullet diameter increased from 9mm to .45. IIRC the diffrence was around 2.6" of additional down -0- surface area (based on scoring line edge hit of a .45 over 9mm), not much of an advantage, but an advantage nonetheless.

Yea I know that's "GAMING" way to much, but what the heck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I received confirmation from IDPA headquarters that 45 was allowed in ESP. 

It makes sense, fits the rules, and provides no real advantage - but The anti-gaming crowd gets very worked up over things that seem like they might give an adantage.

Anyway, IDPA and the rules both seem to indicate that it is ok.

My problem has been loading a 45 minor load that won't hang up under rapid fire.

Each time I approach the 130 pf range I start getting failures to feed.

Regards,

Slipped

200 gr lswc,3.9 gr. clays, 12lb spring, 150pf,feels like shooting a 22

pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...