Accepting Charlie

[anonymouscuban]

Hey all.

 

Not sure this is the correct sub forum to post his in but here goes. I've been working hard in DF and LF to improve my shooting. Have been using the concept of Accuracy vs. Speed vs. Match mode. I'm pretty new to the sport so I'm struggling to know if my Speed mode is actually Speed mode and not Match mode pace.

 

There is a speed I can run where I get almost all Alphas. This is obviously too slow. This is Accuracy mode. But then there is what I think is Speed mode where I'm pushing my transitions and stuff so I'm throwing Charlies and the occasional Delta BUT...

 

Is this really Speed mode?

 

I'm trying to get over this idea that I'm gonna shoot all alphas. I admit that I get disappointed when I see charlies. I know Charlies are ok. But at what point are you getting too many charlies on a stage?

 

I get that its gonna depend on the stage... partials, distance, swingers, etc. But in general.

 

Or maybe I'm focusing on the wrong thing here. If I am, please set me straight.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

[robbiespratt]

What is your overall goal for shooting in competitions? From my limited experience (I'm in it for the fun ), I've seen guys blow through stages at super fast paces with charlies, deltas, & mikes and still come out in the top 5 or higher for that stage just because they completed the stage so much faster than everyone else.

 

Now at larger events where there are many more high level shooters this doesn't work out so well for them. They have to slow down a little and make good hits.

[Part_time_redneck]

7 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

 

Hey all.

 

Not sure this is the correct sub forum to post his in but here goes. I've been working hard in DF and LF to improve my shooting. Have been using the concept of Accuracy vs. Speed vs. Match mode. I'm pretty new to the sport so I'm struggling to know if my Speed mode is actually Speed mode and not Match mode pace.

 

There is a speed I can run where I get almost all Alphas. This is obviously too slow. This is Accuracy mode. But then there is what I think is Speed mode where I'm pushing my transitions and stuff so I'm throwing Charlies and the occasional Delta BUT...

 

Is this really Speed mode?

 

I'm trying to get over this idea that I'm gonna shoot all alphas. I admit that I get disappointed when I see charlies. I know Charlies are ok. But at what point are you getting too many charlies on a stage?

 

I get that its gonna depend on the stage... partials, distance, swingers, etc. But in general.

 

Or maybe I'm focusing on the wrong thing here. If I am, please set me straight.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Steve Anderson describes it as such. 

 

Accuracy mode. Not the speed where you get almost all Alphas. Only Alphas. Accuracy is the only thing important. Goal is to learn to fire accurate shots. 

 

Speed mode. Massive speed gains are the only goal. Accuracy is not judged in this practice mode. You are still calling your shots but not making up any poor hits. This is why he advocates using shot up targets or even no targets and just shooting between the target sticks. Only thing is working time down and not being concerned with hits during this mode of practice. 

 

Match mode. Only leaving acceptable hits on targets. Time is not judged. Therefore alphas or close Charlies. What looks like wide Charlies have a way of becoming deltas. Any shot called as unacceptable is made up instantly. 

 

Check out his podcast. He can explain his philosophies much better than I can. The common denominator between all his practice modes is to only work on one thing at a time. Narrowly define success as he puts it. If I made a mistake in my explanation above, I apologize. This is just my interpretation of Steve Andersons work. 

 

As as for A / C ratio, get ready for the debate. Too many variables to list. If you're calling your shots and leaving acceptable hits, the Charlie ratio will work itself out. The entire scoring system comes down to a balance of speed / accuracy. 

[Matt1]

In a Minor division getting anything less than 85% A’s isn’t going to be good enough.

In a Major division you don’t need as many (provided you are fast enough).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[anonymouscuban]

What is your overall goal for shooting in competitions? From my limited experience (I'm in it for the fun ), I've seen guys blow through stages at super fast paces with charlies, deltas, & mikes and still come out in the top 5 or higher for that stage just because they completed the stage so much faster than everyone else.
 
Now at larger events where there are many more high level shooters this doesn't work out so well for them. They have to slow down a little and make good hits.

My goal is to be A class by end of this year. A lofty goal since I only shot my first match in January and I shot a gun the 1st time 3 years ago. But it's the goal I set for myself. I can do it if I stay committed to putting in the work.

 
Steve Anderson describes it as such. 
 
Accuracy mode. Not the speed where you get almost all Alphas. Only Alphas. Accuracy is the only thing important. Goal is to learn to fire accurate shots. 
 
Speed mode. Massive speed gains are the only goal. Accuracy is not judged in this practice mode. You are still calling your shots but not making up any poor hits. This is why he advocates using shot up targets or even no targets and just shooting between the target sticks. Only thing is working time down and not being concerned with hits during this mode of practice. 
 
Match mode. Only leaving acceptable hits on targets. Time is not judged. Therefore alphas or close Charlies. What looks like wide Charlies have a way of becoming deltas. Any shot called as unacceptable is made up instantly. 
 
Check out his podcast. He can explain his philosophies much better than I can. The common denominator between all his practice modes is to only work on one thing at a time. Narrowly define success as he puts it. If I made a mistake in my explanation above, I apologize. This is just my interpretation of Steve Andersons work. 
 
As as for A / C ratio, get ready for the debate. Too many variables to list. If you're calling your shots and leaving acceptable hits, the Charlie ratio will work itself out. The entire scoring system comes down to a balance of speed / accuracy. 

Thank you for the explanation. I've listened to a couple of Anderson's podcasts that he has shared for free. I think he has a subscription that I plan on buying.

You explanation does help. Especially the speed mode description. I think the key is still maintaining some control to call your shots. Not going so fast that your just throwing lead down range. I like the idea of using shot up targets. As I said, one of the hardest things for me so far, mentally, is accepting hits outside the A zone. Even in practice. I'm learning to but it's still hard not to get hung up on it and slow down. A shot up target will help.

In a Minor division getting anything less than 85% A’s isn’t going to be good enough.

In a Major division you don’t need as many (provided you are fast enough).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. I think I've read the 85% before but not sure. I shoot Production. Plan to stick with it for a while so I know I need to shoot better than the guys in my squad that run major. This helps me to gauge where I need to be.

What's great is that I'm seeing consistent improvement in my shooting. Both speed and accuracy. However, I know I'm on the steep part of the learning curve right now and as I get better, the incremental improvements will be harder to come by. I want to make sure I am practicing correctly.

Appreciate the help.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Matt1]

Buy Ben Stoeger’s new book. Read & apply. Take a class when you can.

That’s the best advice I can give


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[anonymouscuban]

Buy Ben Stoeger’s new book. Read & apply. Take a class when you can.

That’s the best advice I can give


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. I have Ben's older book. Will check out his new one. I have taken Def-tac classes but never a competition centered claas. I plan to for sure. I don't mind spending on good training.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[DKorn]

On 4/21/2019 at 12:34 AM, anonymouscuban said:

 

Hey all.

 

Not sure this is the correct sub forum to post his in but here goes. I've been working hard in DF and LF to improve my shooting. Have been using the concept of Accuracy vs. Speed vs. Match mode. I'm pretty new to the sport so I'm struggling to know if my Speed mode is actually Speed mode and not Match mode pace.

 

There is a speed I can run where I get almost all Alphas. This is obviously too slow. This is Accuracy mode. But then there is what I think is Speed mode where I'm pushing my transitions and stuff so I'm throwing Charlies and the occasional Delta BUT...

 

Is this really Speed mode?

 

I'm trying to get over this idea that I'm gonna shoot all alphas. I admit that I get disappointed when I see charlies. I know Charlies are ok. But at what point are you getting too many charlies on a stage?

 

I get that its gonna depend on the stage... partials, distance, swingers, etc. But in general.

 

Or maybe I'm focusing on the wrong thing here. If I am, please set me straight.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Accuracy mode means your only goal is improving accuracy. This could be group shooting, or it could be something you use when you’re working on a type of target, positioning, or distance that’s new to you or that you find difficult. Your goal is to improve your accuracy and the time doesn’t matter - don’t even use a timer! 

 

Speed mode means your only goal is improving speed. This means pushing yourself faster than you’ve gone before and finding ways to do everything quicker, sooner, and faster. Accuracy doesn’t matter and isn’t judged, you only care about improving speed. This doesn’t mean you’re just waving the gun around, but it means that dropping points is OK as long as you’re making speed gains. Let’s say the fastest you’ve ever done a draw to an alpha is 1.1 seconds. If you do a 1.0 and it’s a charlie, and your goal is speed, then that’s an improvement. What about a .8 and a delta? Or a .7 and a mike? If you’ve never done a sub second draw, those are huge gains, and worth ignoring accuracy for a bit. 

 

The key thing about these 2 modes is that they are ONLY for practice. Not matches. The only mode you should take to matches is... match mode!

[anonymouscuban]

 
Accuracy mode means your only goal is improving accuracy. This could be group shooting, or it could be something you use when you’re working on a type of target, positioning, or distance that’s new to you or that you find difficult. Your goal is to improve your accuracy and the time doesn’t matter - don’t even use a timer! 
 
Speed mode means your only goal is improving speed. This means pushing yourself faster than you’ve gone before and finding ways to do everything quicker, sooner, and faster. Accuracy doesn’t matter and isn’t judged, you only care about improving speed. This doesn’t mean you’re just waving the gun around, but it means that dropping points is OK as long as you’re making speed gains. Let’s say the fastest you’ve ever done a draw to an alpha is 1.1 seconds. If you do a 1.0 and it’s a charlie, and your goal is speed, then that’s an improvement. What about a .8 and a delta? Or a .7 and a mike? If you’ve never done a sub second draw, those are huge gains, and worth ignoring accuracy for a bit. 
 
The key thing about these 2 modes is that they are ONLY for practice. Not matches. The only mode you should take to matches is... match mode!

I think what I'm really trying to figure out is where I draw the line for match mode. I may be over thinking this. What I don't want to do is use "safe mode" as my match mode. What I mean is I don't want to regress to playing it safe during a match. I want to push myself. Find that line and walk it where I'm safe, in control, but moving fast, transition fast, etc but still making acceptable hits. That's all on me. You guys can't really help me figure this out . I guess I was just looking for some help to conceptualize it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[motosapiens]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:48 AM, Matt1 said:

In a Minor division getting anything less than 85% A’s isn’t going to be good enough.
 

 

So you think Ben getting only 84% alphas is why he lost production nationals?

[candiru]

I think what I'm really trying to figure out is where I draw the line for match mode. I may be over thinking this. What I don't want to do is use "safe mode" as my match mode. What I mean is I don't want to regress to playing it safe during a match. I want to push myself. Find that line and walk it where I'm safe, in control, but moving fast, transition fast, etc but still making acceptable hits. That's all on me. You guys can't really help me figure this out . I guess I was just looking for some help to conceptualize it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Get Ben Stoeger’s newest book, Breakthrough Marksmanship and work on his drills like Practical Accuracy and Doubles.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

I think what I'm really trying to figure out is where I draw the line for match mode. I may be over thinking this. What I don't want to do is use "safe mode" as my match mode.
 

 

alphas and close charlies (that might be alphas) are generally acceptable. If shooting minor, alphas and wide alphas (that might be charlies) are acceptable. If you end up with less than 70% or so alphas (minor) or 50% for major, I would say you are either not calling your shots well, or not refining your sight picture enough.

[anonymouscuban]

Get Ben Stoeger’s newest book, Breakthrough Marksmanship and work on his drills like Practical Accuracy and Doubles.

I was just about to order his Skills and Drills Reloaded. Do you recommend Practical Accuracy over this?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[candiru]

13 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

I was just about to order his Skills and Drills Reloaded. Do you recommend Practical Accuracy over this?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

For the question you're asking here, definitely start with:

https://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Marksmanship-Tools-Practical-Shooting/dp/1091416818/

 

But getting Skills & Drills Reloaded while you're at it is good, too.

 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, anonymouscuban said:

I think what I'm really trying to figure out is where I draw the line for match mode. I may be over thinking this. What I don't want to do is use "safe mode" as my match mode. What I mean is I don't want to regress to playing it safe during a match. I want to push myself. Find that line and walk it where I'm safe, in control, but moving fast, transition fast, etc but still making acceptable hits. That's all on me. You guys can't really help me figure this out . I guess I was just looking for some help to conceptualize it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

 

Match mode you don’t control speed. You shoot as fast as you can see good enough sight pictures (“see what you need to see”) and make up any hits that you call as worse than alphas or close charlies. Everything that isn’t shooting you do as fast as you can. 

 

More importantly, you analyze, strategize, memorize, and visualize your stage plan so that it becomes subconscious. Then, you give your conscious mind one job (watch the sights and evaluate each shot as acceptable or unacceptable based on the sights as they begin to lift in recoil, and decide whether to fire a makeup) and let everything else happen subconsciously. This ensures that you get the best you’re capable of based on your training - your subconscious level of skill.

[anonymouscuban]

For the question you're asking here, definitely start with:
https://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Marksmanship-Tools-Practical-Shooting/dp/1091416818/
 
But getting Skills & Drills Reloaded while you're at it is good, too. [emoji846]
 

Just bought both of them. LoL

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Matt1]

 
Match mode you don’t control speed. You shoot as fast as you can see good enough sight pictures (“see what you need to see”) and make up any hits that you call as worse than alphas or close charlies. Everything that isn’t shooting you do as fast as you can. 
 
More importantly, you analyze, strategize, memorize, and visualize your stage plan so that it becomes subconscious. Then, you give your conscious mind one job (watch the sights and evaluate each shot as acceptable or unacceptable based on the sights as they begin to lift in recoil, and decide whether to fire a makeup) and let everything else happen subconsciously. This ensures that you get the best you’re capable of based on your training - your subconscious level of skill.

It’s almost like Steve wrote that, lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matt1]

 
So you think Ben getting only 84% alphas is why he lost production nationals?

I haven’t spoken to him about that match. 85% is a generalisation (and I CBF looking up historical results to see if it holds true) but it’s a number I have heard from him before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DKorn]

53 minutes ago, Matt1 said:

 

It’s almost like Steve wrote that, lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

I listen to his podcast an unhealthy amount, if there is such a thing. 

[Bwillis]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:03 AM, Matt1 said:

Buy Ben Stoeger’s new book. Read & apply. Take a class when you can.

That’s the best advice I can give


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

+1 his new book was an eye opener.

[Nathanb]

Found my answer 

Edited May 5, 2019 by Nathanb

[MemphisMechanic]

@anonymouscuban you haven’t told anyone what division you shoot. What kind of gun within that division? What is your current classification, and are you having trouble climbing out of that classification - have you been in B class for a long time or are you a fresh C class just getting started in the sport?

[anonymouscuban]

 

 

 

[mention=66421]anonymouscuban[/mention] you haven’t told anyone what division you shoot. What kind of gun within that division? What is your current classification, and are you having trouble climbing out of that classification - have you been in B class for a long time or are you a fresh C class just getting started in the sport?

 

Sorry. Should have mentioned this stuff. Here goes.

 

I shoot Production. Shooting an SP-01 Manual Safety that I've tuned over the past 1.5 years with CGW parts. Polished all the internals. It's a great running gun. Very reliable and much more accurate than I am.

 

I shot my first pistol not quite 3 years ago. Shot my first USPSA match in January. I've shot 3 matches so far. My local club hosts a monthly match and I've committed to shooting all of them. I am planning on shooting other matches at other clubs as well. Actually gonna see about shooting a match in Hawaii in July during vacation.

 

I am currently unclassified. I get better with every match so looking forward to finally not seeing a U next to my name. There are a couple of B and C class shooters in the squad I've been shooting with and I place right in between them typcially. Some stages I beat the B class guys. Some I don't. Seems like the bigger stages, where time matters more, they get the better of me. My low hanging fruit right now is stage planning. Especially moving to each shooting position efficiently.

 

I dry fire at least 4 days a week and I live fire at least once a week. More now that I am reloading my own rounds. I've taken a few training classes but they were defensive/tactical shooting classes. This was before I started action pistol shooting. I've become friends with a an M class shooter that I am learning a lot from but I'm an information junky so I like to seek out different opinions on things and then process it to see what works for me.

 

That's about it.

 

And here are the results and video of one of the stages in my last match.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[elguapo]

Moving out of the first array, you're backing up.  Don't.  Pivot, spin, and sprint with the pistol pointed downrange.

 

Arrived at the port with the pistol up and ready to go: good job.

 

Transitions at the last array sounded like mine: slow.

 

 

[elguapo]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:52 AM, anonymouscuban said:

I shoot Production. Plan to stick with it for a while so I know I need to shoot better than the guys in my squad that run major. This helps me to gauge where I need to be.

 

This makes no sense.  Compare yourself to those who shoot Production, or if you must add some more people, Carry Optics.

 

I don't compare myself to anyone in my squad unless they shoot production, and sometimes not even them.  I do my post-match analysis on Practiscore data.

Edited May 6, 2019 by elguapo