DQ event

[adamge]

I'll try to set the stage. Might miss some pertinent info.

-Level 1 local IPSC match (some here call it a Level 2 but imo it doesn't qualify for L2).

-Shooter does his load and make ready on command from RO, has handgun holstered as per WSB.

-Someone notices a target is not taped.

-RO instructs shooter to put hands on head, which he does.

-RO instructs someone to go tape target, which he does.

-Right after taper clears range, shooter unholsters pistol (no command from RO at this point) and takes a [Edit: checks his dot while with gun in hand], holsters again and gets in ready position.

-RO does the regular are you ready, standby, beep.

-Shooter shoots stage, they score it like normal.

-At some time during scoring or just after shooter hits approve on Practiscore tablet (I'm not sure which, I didn't get info on this): someone points out to RO that shooter unholstered without command before starting the stage, RO decides to DQ shooter.

 

Can anyone weigh in?  I think it's fair to say the RO should have noticed the DQ action by the shooter right when it happened rather than after the stage is complete.  But given that he didn't in this case, is an after-the-fact DQ the right call?

Edited April 21, 2019 by adamge

[adamge]

My other questions:

-What rules apply to this scenario of RO telling shooter to put hands on head while hot, someone going downrange, then going back into normal set of procedures/commands?

 

[Joe4d]

well IMO under USPSA rules, the correct thing to do would for the RO to use correct range commands. That is wh we have specific range commands and not chit chat...
After make ready was given correct thing for RO to do would be to issue STOP command..  Then take whatever action is necessary, then start over with make ready.
Yes should be a DQ if guy draws after Stop , and before make ready.  
SO basically the guy ggot DQ for not reacting properly to an improper range command,, doesnt seem legit to me.

[TaterHead]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

well IMO under USPSA rules, the correct thing to do would for the RO to use correct range commands. That is wh we have specific range commands and not chit chat...
After make ready was given correct thing for RO to do would be to issue STOP command..  Then take whatever action is necessary, then start over with make ready.
Yes should be a DQ if guy draws after Stop , and before make ready.  
SO basically the guy ggot DQ for not reacting properly to an improper range command,, doesnt seem legit to me.

 

This ^.  DQ was BS.

[fishhunter3]

this was  bad DQ

Frist, holster and place you hands on you head is not a legal range command, Second, the shooter was still under the make ready command.

What the RO should have done was, STOP,  Unload and show clear, Hammer down and holster, had target repaired and then start again, I know it doesn't happen this way often but save a minute or 2 it's done, this was a range officer failure not the shooters,  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by fishhunter3

[Paulie]

I know people do turn and draws but I don’t think anyone should be downrange once a shooter has made ready. We have layers of rules to ensure that multiple were broken before someone is hurt.

 

What if the shooter thought that “hand on head” was just the correct surrender start position instead of some sort of made up timeout and didn’t notice taper, then jumped a buzzer? 

 

Stop

Unload and show clear

If clear hammer down holster

Range is clear

Tape

Make ready

Edited April 21, 2019 by Paulie

[rowdyb]

Yep, best practice is to stop the course of fire the legal way. Tape. Resume with new, original commands.

 

Second best, just look at the holes in the one target and remember them. Shoot it as is, without stopping the process already started.

 

Bogus DQ. When you contravene the rule book with an outside, though maybe accepted, action you have a hard time using actions in that time frame to make a rules case.

[Chili]

First USPSA rules are pointless as this was an IPSC match.  I've seen this happen on many occasions over the years, usually not a big deal it is generally pretty clear to all involved what is going on but there is nothing in the rule book specifically I can cite that covers it, so yes by the book the shooter should be unloaded and shown clear etc.  Yes the RO should have caught the unsafe action but they are human and miss stuff, the DQ after the fact when someone else weighs in is a bit dodgy.  Question for the shooter, even if confused by the situation why are you taking a sight picture at an IPSC match during your loading process?

[IHAVEGAS]

11 minutes ago, Chili said:

Question for the shooter, even if confused by the situation why are you taking a sight picture at an IPSC match during your loading process?

 

Lots of people do it routinely in USPSA and IDPA.

"Make Ready" - Shooter draws at match speed - takes sight picture and perhaps drops hammer while on target - shooter then loads mag into gun at match speed and gets second sight picture.

 

I like it for last chance final confirmation of technique. Not sure how this might relate to IPSC. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, adamge said:

-At some time during scoring or just after shooter hits approve on Practiscore tablet (I'm not sure which, I didn't get info on this): someone points out to RO that shooter unholstered without command before starting the stage, RO decides to DQ shooter.

 

If it was not someone with the timer or scoring device in hand while the shooter ran the stage, I would call that really bad sportsmanship. 

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Lots of people do it routinely in USPSA and IDPA.

"Make Ready" - Shooter draws at match speed - takes sight picture and perhaps drops hammer while on target - shooter then loads mag into gun at match speed.

 

I like it for last chance final confirmation of technique. Not sure how this might relate to IPSC. 

Sight pictures are not allowed in IPSC.

[MemphisMechanic]

The RO decides to depart from correct and routine procedure, and make up his own range commands.

 

The shooter follows suit.

 

Are unusual results from this situation the shooter’s fault, or the ROs?

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, ChuckS said:

Sight pictures are not allowed in IPSC.

 

Wellll, alrighty about that then  

 

Thanks. 

 

I was wrong about IDPA too, forgot that you can't add in a sight picture with the practice draw and reload. 

[ChuckS]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

The RO decides to depart from correct and routine procedure, and make up his own range commands.

 

The shooter follows suit.

 

Are unusual results from this situation the shooter’s fault, or the ROs?

I would hate to RM this one but as I see it, it's all on the RO for going off the COF script. He gave the LAMR command. Nothing else he did was in the rules, un-LAMR'ed the shooter, or ended the COF. No path to a DQ that I can see.

[adamge]

27 minutes ago, Chili said:

First USPSA rules are pointless as this was an IPSC match.  I've seen this happen on many occasions over the years, usually not a big deal it is generally pretty clear to all involved what is going on but there is nothing in the rule book specifically I can cite that covers it, so yes by the book the shooter should be unloaded and shown clear etc.  Yes the RO should have caught the unsafe action but they are human and miss stuff, the DQ after the fact when someone else weighs in is a bit dodgy.  Question for the shooter, even if confused by the situation why are you taking a sight picture at an IPSC match during your loading process?

 

Sorry my bad, I wrote it up wrong. Shooter just checked his dot, didn't do a sight picture. I'll update original post.

[pskys2]

Shouldn't DQ after the COF is run.  If it's an offense worthy of the DQ you must stop them then.

 

Had a situation at a local IDPA match, shooter shot at the 180 line in a COF.  The assistant SO (IPAD Scoring) reacted to some in the peanut gallery of a 180 infraction and yelled stop.  I informed the 2 SO's to discuss what they saw and decide what was right, it's not the peanut galleries job.  The SO was positive there was no infraction and the Assistant wasn't sure so the shooter got a re-shoot. 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Shouldn't DQ after the COF is run.  If it's an offense worthy of the DQ you must stop them then.

 

Had a situation at a local IDPA match, shooter shot at the 180 line in a COF.  The assistant SO (IPAD Scoring) reacted to some in the peanut gallery of a 180 infraction and yelled stop.  I informed the 2 SO's to discuss what they saw and decide what was right, it's not the peanut galleries job.  The SO was positive there was no infraction and the Assistant wasn't sure so the shooter got a re-shoot. 

 

Nice job.

 

Seems like the 180 call is the one that we screw up most when officiating. 

[tkheard]

From the original scenario, the shooter was still at “Make Ready”. The RO did go off script. If he had restarted the shooter with MR, then a DQ might have been appropriate, but...
Bogus DQ, in my humble opinion.

[Sarge]

Bogus but a few other points to ponder. I was taught to NOT have shooter put hands on head or over head etc because it fatigues their arms and could create an unfair disadvantage. especially the example somebody mentioned of taking a full minute to rectify. In that case the shooter should have been cleared and moved down in the order. I was taught there is no need to totally stop the shooter and clear them, rather, notify shooter there is a problem, step in front of the shooter and have them relax while keeping eyes on them. Once stage is clear give them make ready again so they don't have doubt and don't feel rushed to get on with it.

[waktasz]

Yep. If the RO tells me to put my hands over my head I will just turn my back to the COF and stand there. 

 

As the RO I will do as Sarge stated above. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by waktasz

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 was taught there is no need to totally stop the shooter and clear them, rather, notify shooter there is a problem, step in front of the shooter and have them relax while keeping eyes on them. Once stage is clear give them make ready again so they don't have doubt and don't feel rushed to get on with it.

 

A good friend dq'd at an area match last year. 

There was quite a long delay after the first make ready and he never cleared his gun. On the second make ready he reinitiated his normal routine and fired a shot. 

After this happened and we thought about it we decided we would error on the side of clearing shooters when not essential.

 

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

A good friend dq'd at an area match last year. 

There was quite a long delay after the first make ready and he never cleared his gun. On the second make ready he reinitiated his normal routine and fired a shot. 

After this happened and we thought about it we decided we would error on the side of clearing shooters when not essential.

 

Good thought

[davsco]

bogus dq.  however, I would have asked if i could resume make ready after the issue was resolved and everyone was back behind the line, just to avoid any doubt. 

 

the whole hands on head thing is just stupid.  if you're going to be that irrational, just unload the shooter.  we're running around with loaded guns, have stages with uprange starts, and yet can't trust a shooter to keep it in the holster after being told to do so while folks are downrange fixing a target...

[Chili]

I normally just ask the shooter to cross his arms across his chest while the person goes down range.  I also am ready the moment the range is clear and once again issue the Load and Make ready command so there would be no chance of the gun coming out prior to my command.  @adamge  did Martin challenge the DQ to the CRO/RM? I would suspect they would have a hard time citing the rule to up hold the DQ but now I am curious.  Brings up another other issue is we routinely run two stages hot during our indoor season here, never had an issue (short of one dropped loaded gun) but I could see it being a potential for issues as well since it is not explicitly spelled out in the rule book.

[tkheard]

There have been several examples in this thread. I don’t mean to pick nits, but the command is ‘Make Ready’. Think about what happens in an unloaded start...