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Tips to improve 3 gun Rifle distance shooting


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As a friend pointed out once, you and your rifle are a system.  You obviously must breathe, pull the trigger etc... but the system is the scope, ammo, dope, shooter etc.  To develop the system it takes a little work to figure out the system.  Assuming you and the rifle are dialed in, the scope is integral to the system too.  What glass are you using?

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On 4/20/2019 at 8:10 PM, Broncos79 said:

I located an Appleseed course near my town in Arizona - thank you for the recommendation 

 

Good idea.  You may be amazed at what you learn and how much it helps.  I've seen guys who do regular CMP/high power shoots come to an Appleseed and tell me little things they learned, or relearned, that helped them improve their rifle shooting.

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Do you have a solid scope mount? If not, it could mean a wandering zero and endless frustration.

 

Assuming your optic is solid and properly zeroed, and your rifle is capable of 4MOA or better (military-grade accuracy), you probably aren't getting stable enough. There are lots of tricks to getting more stable, but they depend on the prop you are shooting off. You need to shoot with someone experienced who will mentor you - a lot of folks get into trouble by using the "monkey see, monkey do" method of position building.

 

I run the monthly multigun match up at Rio Salado (second Saturday morning each month, in Mesa, AZ). If you are able to come up and participate in our match, send me an IM and I will watch you shoot and offer some tips/tricks. I guarantee it will be worth the drive, and will save you a lot of $$$ on gear you don't need.

Edited by StealthyBlagga
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A good FF scope with a good reticle and getting actual dope for your setup/ammo.  Take good notes, write it on a little card and tape it to your scope, that should get you close depending on external factors.  I know for my 18 inch rifle zeroed POA/POI at 200 yds shooting 62 gr fed, I need to hold 1 mil for 300, 1.3 for 325, 1.5 for 350, 2 for 375, 2.3 for 400, 2.4 for 425, 2.5 for 450, etc.....and I got dope out to 775.  My buddy and I set up a small steel target, grabbed the rangefinder and walked back in 25 yard increments.

 

My other suggestion, is to go out with a buddy that shoots PRS matches and run his setup and help him offset the cost of the ammo.  Your long range game will improve dramatically, unfortunately you might find yourself sucked into the PRS life....

 

Believe the bullet,

 

JG

 

 

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On 4/20/2019 at 10:31 AM, Broncos79 said:

Hello All -

 

recently shot a couple of 3 gun matches and had a great time but struggled with the distance shots 200yds and 250 yds

 

any tips are appreciated 

Really don't know much more about what you're doing  or why you having trouble at targets that close. But I have found the best thing, is cardio. Just a thought. Zero at 25 you'll have much better outcome. I use a burris Mtac 1-4 with switchview lever.

Edited by usmc1974
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On 4/20/2019 at 8:55 AM, Broncos79 said:

Great tips - I did recently zero at 50 yds after my last match

 

This is what I found. I also did the 50yrd zero and found I was having difficulty at the 200-250yrd range. I finally got out to refine my zero at 200 yrds and found it was 2.5MOA high. Once i got a true 200yrd zero, everything else fell into place. I had very little trouble with the long range stuff at last weeks SMM3G match and this was shooting 55gr FMJ American Eagle ammo. 

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Some mixed advice here. Your reticle probably has an intended zero distance based on the subtensions so I suggest you determine that first and zero at that distance. Looks like Leo had couple reticle offered in that scope so depends on which one. 99% of the time you 2 choices are 100 or 50/200, manipulating your zero to match loads is advanced stuff for later. Once you have a solid zero correct for your scope you need to shoot targets at as many different distances as you can with the same ammo you will use in a match using exact velocity from a chronograph and any decent ballistic app with 100% correct data inputs. This will verify your hits to the data and then you will know your load scope and app are good to go, test as many distances as you can out to as far as you will shoot in a match. For me if my dope is good at 300 & 500 I'm confident its tight anywhere else. If it's not right figure out why period until you can hit 3moa targets at several distances. Once this is done the match is easy. The target is 250 so I have to hold right here on my reticle and I know its right because I tested at the range. If I miss i know its me and then I can work on positions marksmanship etc. But if you aren't 100% sure where the bullet is going to hit you won't be able to progress well.

Edited by inertia
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I use the Leupold Multigun w CMR-2 reticle.  Zero is at 50/200 yards for my hoser ammo (see below for all the holdovers using today's weather).

 

My gun shoots about 2MOA with hoser ammo and that's good enough for all the long range targets I shoot.  when I miss it's usually because of me, not the gun.

 

Ammo differences can make a huge difference in your holdovers ... I attached my hoser load (55g Hornady SP) and a long range load (77g) so you can see the difference.

 

I remember in a class I took from Frank Proctor he was saying as a principle always try to get another point of contact. If you have 2 points of contact, try to get 3, if you have 3 points, get 4. The more you are in contact with stable objects the better.

IMG_79ED71C82772-1.jpeg

IMG_155C0CF1E172-1.jpeg

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  • 2 weeks later...
53 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

$11.99 actually!

lol worth every penny to. I use it for long range shooting, three guns everything. I got a MTAC-1-4 and use it for 3 gun. it is awesome. It's awesome. whatever you got it will tell you what to do with it. Somehow I missed that 1-6  that was for sale in be forms

Edited by usmc1974
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  • 1 month later...

Focus HARD on the reticle (or front sight, with irons). This is critical to good shooting. Not on the target, although you'll still be able to see it, focus on the reticle. Probably the biggest takeaway I learned from a precision rifle class at Gunsite Academy.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/16/2020 at 2:16 PM, tyr264 said:

Focus HARD on the reticle (or front sight, with irons). This is critical to good shooting. Not on the target, although you'll still be able to see it, focus on the reticle. Probably the biggest takeaway I learned from a precision rifle class at Gunsite Academy.

Quoted for my future reference. I'll try to remember to try that.

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  • 3 years later...

Your long range 3gun game can be helped before you ever get to the match. No matter where you zero, you need to chrono your ammo and input that into a ballistic calculator. Whether you can test your holds at distance or are a shooter who has access only to a 50 yard range this is necessary info. Far too many shooters are going off the box's stated velocity (that they measured out of a 24in barrel) or trying to guess what their velocity is based on what someone said on a forum. That said I think 100yd is the ideal distance to zero at, far enough you get a good idea of your grouping and any necessary adjustments but not so far that wind is a factor. After just use the data you've collected to adjust your zero to your hashes or whatever zero you prefer, whether it be 200 or 300.

 

Your 55gr bulk ammo is not good enough. It very likely groups like s#!t even at a 100yds and it's velocities are too inconsistent. You either need to load your own or purchase good 68 or 77 grain ammo. A 3moa cone of fire becomes ~9 inches at 300 yards. Say you're shooting at a 10in plate, scope wobble, the aforementioned cone of fire and shooter input are conspiring to make that cone of fire larger than the target (I am ignoring wind but that can be a factor as well). You need to aim dead center and be absolutely perfect to be reasonably confident of a good hit. Meanwhile, a rifle shooting 1moa has a cone of fire of 3in. You now can pull the trigger 1.5 inches from the edge of the target and still get a hit. You see how that mechanical accuracy can make the difference between going to war with a target vs taking it with a single shot? Many new shooters with an inaccurate system assume the problem is their hold and start attempting to fix it by holding the opposite direction of their last shot, unaware that the next shot has a good chance of sailing in the same direction of their new hold. They chase a hold that doesn't exist.

 

You do these two things where you are removing randomness and unknown variables from your shooting before the match even starts it lessens the impact of things that require practice, like different positions and basic marksmanship skills.

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Bulk 55 gr. Ammo can easily win matches, as long as your rifle and ammo combo shoots ok. I have won many a match out to 500 yds with a 2 MOA rifle with 55 gr ammo. Biggest "long range" problems I see fall into 3 categories. 

1. Poor trigger control. It is very common with newer shooters and higher magnification optics to fall into yanking the hell out of the trigger because with the wobble they see in the higher magnification the cross hair/retical only seems to be right on the target very briefly.

2. Poor zeroing technique or understanding of ballistics. Also not realizing that what brand and weight you zeroed with is what you have to stay with. 

3. Letting the barrel or gas block touch things while trying to engage long range targets.

 

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21 hours ago, kurtm said:

Bulk 55 gr. Ammo can easily win matches, as long as your rifle and ammo combo shoots ok. I have won many a match out to 500 yds with a 2 MOA rifle with 55 gr ammo. Biggest "long range" problems I see fall into 3 categories. 

1. Poor trigger control. It is very common with newer shooters and higher magnification optics to fall into yanking the hell out of the trigger because with the wobble they see in the higher magnification the cross hair/retical only seems to be right on the target very briefly.

2. Poor zeroing technique or understanding of ballistics. Also not realizing that what brand and weight you zeroed with is what you have to stay with. 

3. Letting the barrel or gas block touch things while trying to engage long range targets.

 

 

I'm certain you're skilled enough to work with a less than optimal long range setup but do you really think it's helpful to tell beginner shooters "actually don't do the thing that requires no effort and is gonna make long range easier"?

 

I think it's a weird direction to go, advice-wise.

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I think it is real easy to spend other folks money on ammo that won't necessarily help. I.E. your ammo could be assembled by a laboratory with a 2 fps standard deviation and have a barrel capable of .03 MOA and it won't help one little bit if you don't have good trigger control, or don't know not to rest on the barrel or gas block. I stand behind the 2 MOA statement. If your rifle/ammo combo can do at least that off a bench, AND you have a good zero your long range problems are you.

The advice you tend to proffer is geared towards spending ON the ammo or rifle rather than spending time WITH your rifle, I know which produces better results in the long run. 

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On 10/15/2023 at 3:49 AM, kurtm said:

I think it is real easy to spend other folks money on ammo that won't necessarily help. I.E. your ammo could be assembled by a laboratory with a 2 fps standard deviation and have a barrel capable of .03 MOA and it won't help one little bit if you don't have good trigger control, or don't know not to rest on the barrel or gas block. I stand behind the 2 MOA statement. If your rifle/ammo combo can do at least that off a bench, AND you have a good zero your long range problems are you.

The advice you tend to proffer is geared towards spending ON the ammo or rifle rather than spending time WITH your rifle, I know which produces better results in the long run. 

 

Yeah, that super ammo probably would help even if you're bad at shooting. And he asked for some tips, "get better at shooting by using ammo that makes it harder" is not a helpful tip.

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And how do you know the ammo he is using makes it harder? How do you know his barrel is accurate with heavy bullets? I am sure that your talent in knowing how well other folks rifles would shoot with what you have been lucky with is waisted here. You should open an on line service telling folks what their rifles will shoot best. You will be rich in no time at all. Or you could work on reading comprehension, both would be worthwhile endeavors. 

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On 10/9/2023 at 10:30 AM, Muricanwerewolf said:

Your 55gr bulk ammo is not good enough.

 

Depends on the ammo.  I shoot bulk 55 gr PMC, Wolf Gold, S&B, and Hornady amongst others that do not come to mind all day long out to 400 yds no problem, as do many of the people I shoot with.  You obviously need to do your due diligence to get your dope for the ammo you choose to use, but there is nothing wrong with 55gr in most conditions.  When its windy, heavier ammo makes things a bit easier but its not required.  Telling someone otherwise is not being honest.  Buying more good cheap ammo and being able shoot more trumps buying less expensive ammo any day of the week at 400 yds and closer in my eyes.  

 

I would add 1 other thing to @kurtm list and that would be learn how to shoot in all kinds of compromised positions.  In a match you will very rarely be shooting in a conventional position.  I am not sure what kind of eye box his scope has, but eye position relative to the scope gets compromised in matches.  Learning how to minimize this in various positions will go a long way into shooting at distance consistently.  

 

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