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JoeSoop

Scoop draw for competitive shooting

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59 minutes ago, ehowell12 said:

So much overthinking here. React to the "Baa" part of the Beep, move with gusto, and train to bring the gun up to a perfect sight picture every. single. time. 

I think most will be surprised what would happen if they just let their subconscious take over certain tasks (assuming safe gun handling skills are already as solid as concrete). 

That being said, place lots of emphasis in removing ANY wasted motion in any movement - in this case a long "back down" part of a "non-scoop" draw.

Minimize it - absolutely. Do away with it - fast, but not as consistent. 

 

This. 

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20 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

I have performed consistent .60 - .65 draws using both draw methods out of normal kydex holsters. For the game of USPSA I prefer the over the top method of draw as we are forced into abnormal hand positions quite often where your hands are above the gun. I would rather have one method of drawing the gun regardless of hand position and an over the top draw does exactly that. Less decisions or distractions during a match are a good thing for me. That being said, I have seen several top level shooters use scoop draws with great success or a mixture of scoop and over the top depending on the hand position at the start.

 

One method really isn't "Better" than the other in the grand scheme of overall practical shooting performance. Pick a draw stroke method, optimize the mechanics of the process then practice the s#!t out of it until you can deploy it subconsciously with solid consistency. That is what is important.

 

And this. 

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12 hours ago, GunBugBit said:

Lord no.  Never.

Explain why

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2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

Explain why

 

It's been explained to you why already.  Evidently you like the idea so rock on, at least until you DQ or God forbid shoot someone else by mistake.

 

But just in case you need a reminder this is where it easily leads:

 

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1 hour ago, elguapo said:

 

It's been explained to you why already.  Evidently you like the idea so rock on, at least until you DQ or God forbid shoot someone else by mistake.

 

But just in case you need a reminder this is where it easily leads:

 

Tell me how you can shoot yourself if you're pointing at the berm already

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44 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

Tell me how you can shoot yourself if you're pointing at the berm already

 

I have a better idea.  I'll tell you how the ignore function works after I use it on you.

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On 4/19/2019 at 6:15 AM, xdf3 said:

The second step would be pre-cocking (right term? --- pulling the trigger to remove the pretravel) the hammer while you draw (while aiming the gun in a safe zone).

So let's discuss this in a collegial way.

 

If the gun is aiming at a safe zone (downrange toward targets), that isn't the same to me as "while you draw," even though the draw for clock purposes is the time between start signal and first shot.  Me personally, I don't touch the trigger until immediately before I break my first shot.

 

I think several of us might have been picturing pressing on the trigger as soon as the gun comes out of the holster.  THAT would be most unsafe and unnecessary.

 

Pretravel for me is hardly a thing I feel or think about when shooting any kind of stage, even a stage that requires shots at 40 to 50 yards.  Granted, if I'm taking a little more time on a longer shot, I might take up the pretravel without thinking about it before I break the shot.  But taking up pretravel is never a thing I consider as part of speeding up the draw.

 

That's just me.  If you have another approach, and everything you do is safe, and it's working for you, don't let anyone on the Internet tell you it's wrong.  Your scores will give you most of the feedback you need on the effectiveness of your techniques.

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i think lots of good shooters (especially shooting DA) take up the pre-travel and may even start pressing the trigger before fully verifying the sight picture, but after the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed downrange.

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On this "pre-cocking" mess: as one *feels* more confident in this method, and begins to push speed, the exact instant this trigger press starts to happen becomes cloudy and uncertain. At slow speeds, sure, this could work. IMO, it has no place in our game or anywhere else. I could see considering in mid-stage on 40-50 yard shots as the sight picture is refined, but definitely not during a draw. 

While I've never taken a class from Ben or JJ, I think a page out of both of their books can be used here. It's good to be able to slap your trigger like it stole something (DA/SA/Striker or whatever) without disturbing the sights, however, on long shots and/or partials, a much more controlled method is needed. hence, prepping the trigger. 

At the end of the day, prepping the trigger should happen in slow*er*, controlled manner, not when trying to bust a sub 0.60 draw. 

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8 minutes ago, ehowell12 said:

On this "pre-cocking" mess: as one *feels* more confident in this method, and begins to push speed, the exact instant this trigger press starts to happen becomes cloudy and uncertain. At slow speeds, sure, this could work. IMO, it has no place in our game or anywhere else. I could see considering in mid-stage on 40-50 yard shots as the sight picture is refined, but definitely not during a draw. 

While I've never taken a class from Ben or JJ, I think a page out of both of their books can be used here. It's good to be able to slap your trigger like it stole something (DA/SA/Striker or whatever) without disturbing the sights, however, on long shots and/or partials, a much more controlled method is needed. hence, prepping the trigger. 

At the end of the day, prepping the trigger should happen in slow*er*, controlled manner, not when trying to bust a sub 0.60 draw. 

 

If  you listen to Jerry talk about shooting a wheel gun where every shot is DA he'll mention keeping the cylinder constantly moving. So really he's trying to constantly be prepping the trigger. Which means he's pulling the trigger even on transitions before he gets to the target he's going to shoot next.  But, what does he know?

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4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If  you listen to Jerry talk about shooting a wheel gun where every shot is DA he'll mention keeping the cylinder constantly moving. So really he's trying to constantly be prepping the trigger. Which means he's pulling the trigger even on transitions before he gets to the target he's going to shoot next.  But, what does he know?

He's a genius. 

I still bet he's not prepping a 2lb SA trigger in the same way as a wheel gun. Trigger press technique with DA only guns (wheel or not) doesn't translate 100% to SA only guns at speed. 

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2 minutes ago, ehowell12 said:

He's a genius. 

I still bet he's not prepping a 2lb SA trigger in the same way as a wheel gun. Trigger press technique with DA only guns (wheel or not) doesn't translate 100% to SA only guns at speed. 

 

of course a light SA trigger doesn't require as much as a DA trigger, but that doesn't mean it isn't pretty common for good shooters to be on the trigger before the sights are fully on the target. And unless I missed something, the discussion wasn't purely about SA triggers.

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3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

of course a light SA trigger doesn't require as much as a DA trigger, but that doesn't mean it isn't pretty common for good shooters to be on the trigger before the sights are fully on the target. And unless I missed something, the discussion wasn't purely about SA triggers.

 

I agree. What the discussion was about was prepping during the draw stroke - IMO its a recipe for at least a DQ. For this, I'm calling prepping as actually moving the trigger before the gun fires.

I had mentioned slapping the trigger earlier - not a good practice by any means. However, one should be *able* to pull the trigger aggressively enough to not *have* to prep the trigger on shots that aren't 25-30yd out or tight partials. 

Getting off the trigger quickly and just touching it enough to feel it for the next shot, however, a very beneficial thing transitions.

 

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Eric also talked about prepping the trigger in his course. He waits until he is bringing the gun on target before he starts prepping the trigger. This goes for turning off the safety as well. Why risk a DQ and losing your match fees, hotel and travel expenses, as he put it. 

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25 minutes ago, ehowell12 said:

 

I agree. What the discussion was about was prepping during the draw stroke - IMO its a recipe for at least a DQ. For this, I'm calling prepping as actually moving the trigger before the gun fires.

 

 

I'm not sure what 'during the draw stroke' means in this context. I think it would be pretty crazy and dangerous to start prepping the trigger before I had both hands on the gun and the gun at least partially extended towards the target, but after that point, with a DA trigger (or the long-travel 5lb trigger on our scorpion pcc), starting to pull the trigger makes sense, and is safe in the context of gun games. Heck, even with a single-action trigger, I start pulling before the gun is fully on the target in some situations.

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I wonder how often what we think we do is different from what we really do. Draws are fast, and a lot of things happen in that short amount of time. With out watching yourself on video can you be sure you don't get on the trigger a tenth early? It seems likely all we're talking about is .10 seconds

 

My thinking, I know my draw at 7 yards can be around .7 seconds sometimes better. My draw at 20 yards I feel I get to the gun and get the gun up in the same time, I just spend a extra .5 second or so getting the sight picture I want before I let the round go. Most of that .7 is going to be getting my hand to my gun and the gun out of the holster. I have no way to measure it, but from the time my gun clears the holster to the time it gets to my eye line can't be more then .25 seconds. So if I got on the trigger half way between my holster and line of sight we'd be talking about .12 seconds early. If you're waiting until the last few inches we're probably looking at hundredths of a second early.

 

I don't think I get on the trigger early, but honestly I'm not sure with out watching some slow motion video of my draw.

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8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm not sure what 'during the draw stroke' means in this context. I think it would be pretty crazy and dangerous to start prepping the trigger before I had both hands on the gun and the gun at least partially extended towards the target, but after that point, with a DA trigger (or the long-travel 5lb trigger on our scorpion pcc), starting to pull the trigger makes sense, and is safe in the context of gun games. Heck, even with a single-action trigger, I start pulling before the gun is fully on the target in some situations.

 

Agreed, cooking one off early into the D zone is way different that cooking one into the ground 6' in front of the target. Since this was a "how to draw" post from the beginning - I focused on the subject of how prepping or pre-cocking(?) could lead to a trip to DQ when speed and nerves are added. On the other hand, getting back on the trigger during a transition or while refining a sight picture is a key part of our game. At the end of the day, a sight picture should happen before trigger prep in draws and transitions IMO.  

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22 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

I have a better idea.  I'll tell you how the ignore function works after I use it on you.

Since you're adding no value with your post, I guess that's a good idea

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16 hours ago, GunBugBit said:

So let's discuss this in a collegial way.

 

If the gun is aiming at a safe zone (downrange toward targets), that isn't the same to me as "while you draw," even though the draw for clock purposes is the time between start signal and first shot.  Me personally, I don't touch the trigger until immediately before I break my first shot.

 

I think several of us might have been picturing pressing on the trigger as soon as the gun comes out of the holster.  THAT would be most unsafe and unnecessary.

 

Pretravel for me is hardly a thing I feel or think about when shooting any kind of stage, even a stage that requires shots at 40 to 50 yards.  Granted, if I'm taking a little more time on a longer shot, I might take up the pretravel without thinking about it before I break the shot.  But taking up pretravel is never a thing I consider as part of speeding up the draw.

 

That's just me.  If you have another approach, and everything you do is safe, and it's working for you, don't let anyone on the Internet tell you it's wrong.  Your scores will give you most of the feedback you need on the effectiveness of your techniques.

What I said is one of the most used techniques by good shooters. Maybe not needed for a speed draw because the distance is too lo. No way to be disqualified if you're pressing when the gun is pointing at the targets. Pick the words that are better for you to understand, I'm sorry that there are so many rude people in this forum. 

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6 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I'm sorry that there are so many rude people in this forum. 

Most of them are probably nicer in person.  Something about being behind a keyboard really brings out snarkiness.

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Prepping the trigger on a revolver or DA gun is quite different from even touching a light SA trigger. Most importantly, there must be a specific point in time/space where one starts the prepping process, much like disengaging the safety on a single action. That moment defines the point where the gun is pointed in safe direction and must be very well defined. Start rushing it and you'll send a round into the ground at some point. 

 

As for revolver shooting, the trigger is prepped during recoil and transitions, nothing wrong with that. It keeps the cylinder moving and speeds up follow up shots. Messing up the exact moment a round goes off is no different than messing up the timing of the press of a SA trigger during transition. 

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Never been a fan of the scooped draw. Takes longer to get on target, scooping motion has to be stopped at the top of the motion to not overrun the target, and if a bad habit to get into for defensive carry. Gun up and out and punching towards the target has served me well.

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