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Scoop draw for competitive shooting


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40 minutes ago, MJinPA said:


Google has failed me. Who the heck is PSAD? All I can find is Pennsylvania society for advancement of the deaf. I think a scoop would work well for them too in USPSA.


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Could it be PSTG--practical shooting training group?

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Google has failed me. Who the heck is PSAD? All I can find is Pennsylvania society for advancement of the deaf. I think a scoop would work well for them too in USPSA.


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PSAD = Practical Shooting After Dark

Ben Stoeger’s podcast


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Ok. This question was asked recently in PSTG. I’ll quote Ben & Hwansik’s replies:

Kimmy

“A scoop draw is only beneficial when the hands are below the gun. Since scoop draw is not as simple, I don’t use it. I value getting a perfect grip and consistency more than the speed of the draw”

Ben

“Every single top level GM I know that does the scoop draw has DQed with it at some point in a match. I don’t like it and don’t do it”

Christian Sailer also commented in the thread. He doesn’t like it.

There’s more to the thread (and much more great content) that you can see by joining the training group.


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PSAD = Practical Shooting After Dark

Ben Stoeger’s podcast


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Ah! I’ve heard that he’s not an advocate. But I also recall one of his video reviews on pstg where he mentioned in feedback back that “you have that super efficient scoop draw”. We draw to get the gun out of the holster so we can get to the shooting. For me, the scoop is the most efficient way to do that.


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I wonder how many of those DQ's were from someone using a scoop draw with a pistol in a race block style holster. To me, that seems like a recipe for a flying, probably-not-drop-safe gun. Especially on something like Can You Count, or stages with a similar start that would reward a rocket draw. My kydex holster gives me time to get over the back strap before it is completely free.

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Question for those of you who use a scoop draw in USPSA.

 

Do you carry a pistol concealed on you? 

 

If you do, have you found a way to reliably draw a pistol using a scoop from a concealment holster while clearing the garment covering the pistol?  And if you do use a scoop draw from concealment, what measurable improvement in draw time have you noticed?

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7 minutes ago, elguapo said:

Question for those of you who use a scoop draw in USPSA.

 

Do you carry a pistol concealed on you? 

 

If you do, have you found a way to reliably draw a pistol using a scoop from a concealment holster while clearing the garment covering the pistol?  And if you do use a scoop draw from concealment, what measurable improvement in draw time have you noticed?

 

I doubt anyone is doing a true scoop draw from concealment.

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2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I doubt anyone is doing a true scoop draw from concealment.

 

I thought so too but wanted to ask rather than assume.

 

I'm not into learning two radical different ways to grab my pistol, one for some games and one for other games and for when the s#!t hits the fan

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1 hour ago, elguapo said:

 

I thought so too but wanted to ask rather than assume.

 

I'm not into learning two radical different ways to grab my pistol, one for some games and one for other games and for when the s#!t hits the fan

 

Aren't they already radically different? Holster style and placement, plus lack of concealment garment. We have to learn lots of different draws in this game, there are lots of different possible start positions. You need to be good at all of them.

 

I guess I'm saying I don't see it really messing you up any. Not trying to convince you to do a scoop draw, I don't do them myself.

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21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Aren't they already radically different? Holster style and placement, plus lack of concealment garment. We have to learn lots of different draws in this game, there are lots of different possible start positions. You need to be good at all of them.

 

I guess I'm saying I don't see it really messing you up any. Not trying to convince you to do a scoop draw, I don't do them myself.

 

The path your hand takes to the grip of the pistol is significantly different between a scoop draw and what I call a regular draw when the hand goes up over the grip and comes down onto the backstrap.

 

Yes there are a lot of external differences between drawing from a concealment holster vs a sport holster, but despite all of those differences the path my right hand takes to the gun is the same.

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20 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

The path your hand takes to the grip of the pistol is significantly different between a scoop draw and what I call a regular draw when the hand goes up over the grip and comes down onto the backstrap.

 

Yes there are a lot of external differences between drawing from a concealment holster vs a sport holster, but despite all of those differences the path my right hand takes to the gun is the same.

 

It doesn't seem all that different to me. The path your hand takes will be almost exactly the same, the difference is on you full acquire your grip before you pull the gun, the other you don't. It's a minor change but certainly feels vary different.

 

So for example would you recommend staying away from AIWB since the gun is in a different location and your hand would need to take a different path? Do you think in a real life encounter your start position will be wrists below belt?

 

The only way the scoop is really doable is wrists below belt, typically with your hand touching the back side of the holster. I would bet most guys who do a scoop only do it on the standard wrists below belt starts. For everything else their draw will be more standard. To get good IMO you need a big bag of tricks, all it takes is practice.

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7 hours ago, elguapo said:

have you found a way to reliably draw a pistol using a scoop from a concealment holster while clearing the garment covering the pistol?  And if you do use a scoop draw from concealment, what measurable improvement in draw time have you noticed?

 

I've never tried the scoop deal. But if you wanted to do it from concealment - assuming an open front jacket/vest type thing - you could do the "Dracula" draw or whatever it's referred to as. Support hand grabs support side's bottom garment edge, then jerks up, kind of in front of face, revealing holster. Probably over-complicates the whole thing, but could be amusing.

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On 4/19/2019 at 7:52 AM, elguapo said:

 

I know exactly what you're talking about.  Feel free to stage the trigger all you like.  I know how to do it and know the risks first hand which is why I pass.

 

Just passing on a what JJ teaches in his class, trigger prep.  What that means is learning where your gun fires when the trigger is pulled and then prep to that point. Each gun is different and it does help speed up the first shot with the long DA of Tanfoglio and CZ. 

 

Just passing on what a world class competitor teaches. 

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28 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

 

Just passing on a what JJ teaches in his class, trigger prep.  What that means is learning where your gun fires when the trigger is pulled and then prep to that point. Each gun is different and it does help speed up the first shot with the long DA of Tanfoglio and CZ. 

 

Just passing on what a world class competitor teaches. 

 

I understand.  There are others as skilled as him that advise against it.

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Just passing on a what JJ teaches in his class, trigger prep.  What that means is learning where your gun fires when the trigger is pulled and then prep to that point. Each gun is different and it does help speed up the first shot with the long DA of Tanfoglio and CZ. 
 
Just passing on what a world class competitor teaches. 
I wonder when he advises to prep the trigger. I doubt he teaches people to do it at an early part of their draw.

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He told me to get through 90% of my DA trigger travel as soon as possible and then finalize the last 10% when sight pic is done with.

 

Ben teaches to get a sight pic, and then pull through.

 

Both get pretty good results.  

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7 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

Scoop draw just isn't worth the risk or inconsistency.  The draw just isnt that important in uspsa.  
Can I scop draw faster?  yes.  I can pull 70s without scooping so why risk a  crappy grip that can screw up the next 31 shots

 

I can't draw anywhere as fast as you but agree 100% with everything you said and why

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17 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I wonder when he advises to prep the trigger. I doubt he teaches people to do it at an early part of their draw.

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The idea was to have trigger ready when proper sight picture was available. 

 

Remember this level is based on practice, so trying something new at a match is a bad idea. 

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On 4/25/2019 at 8:30 PM, YVK said:

He told me to get through 90% of my DA trigger travel as soon as possible and then finalize the last 10% when sight pic is done with.

 

Ben teaches to get a sight pic, and then pull through.

 

Both get pretty good results.  

Off topic, but both are useful skills and can be used at different times. With a tough first shot on a Virgina count stage, prep and pull works great.

 

Most of the time with a DA first shot, you want to just give the smooth stroke of the trigger. Shoot a revolver and the 90/10 prep goes right out the window.

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  • 1 month later...

I got curious after reading a few more posts, so I fooled around with it for half an hour last night.  Easily shaved a tenth off my draw time, but it doesn't feel like my hand is seated firmly enough against the beavertail of the gun some of the time.  Probably just a practice thing.

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I just took the Eric Grauffel training course this past weekend.  We had this same discussion. He basically said he doesn't use the scoop draw because it doesn't guarantee a perfect grip every time.  If he can't replicate a technique with 100% consistency in a match under stress he won't use it. 

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