Case hardening techniques for the hammer and sear.

[himurax13]

I have heard about this but I have not seen a video or a writeup about how to do this.

Can anyone shed some light on this process?
 
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[Kurusty]

If you really want it done correctly, you should contact a local heat treatment company. All metals are not created equally and require different temperatures and processes for heat treating. They will need to test your parts to see what type it is before they can tell you anything.

[johnbu]

Hey,  @Apolo   can you enlighten folks>?

[himurax13]

If you really want it done correctly, you should contact a local heat treatment company. All metals are not created equally and require different temperatures and processes for heat treating. They will need to test your parts to see what type it is before they can tell you anything.

 

I didn't even know places like these even existed, lol. I heard that even the aftermarket hammers, Titan, Delta, Unica, are only case hardened as well.

 

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[Kurusty]

 
I didn't even know places like these even existed, lol. I heard that even the aftermarket hammers, Titan, Delta, Unica, are only case hardened as well.
 
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Lol. I've been in the metal/fabrication business for over 25 years, and I will never claim that I know everything about it. I trust the people that do it for a living, that is why I always ask them. I can tell you how they do it but it wouldn't help you, to do it right it takes special equipment and a lot of knowledge.

[elguapo]

32 minutes ago, Kurusty said:

39 minutes ago, himurax13 said:

 
I didn't even know places like these even existed, lol. I heard that even the aftermarket hammers, Titan, Delta, Unica, are only case hardened as well.
 
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Lol. I've been in the metal/fabrication business for over 25 years, and I will never claim that I know everything about it. I trust the people that do it for a living, that is why I always ask them. I can tell you how they do it but it wouldn't help you, to do it right it takes special equipment and a lot of knowledge.

 

Listen to this guy.  He knows what he's talking about.  I have about the same amount of time in manufacturing engineering and a lot of it has been dealing with heat treat subcontractors to get shafts heat treated in all the different ways that my customers demand on their print and specs.

 

Heat treatment, including nitriding (gas, plasma), nitrocarburizing, AQT (austenitizing, quench, and temper), precipitation hardening of high chromium stainless, etc etc; is something that laymen should never, ever, get involved with.  That's the territory of professionals (mechanical engineers and metallurgists) and people outside of OEMs have no business sending gun parts to be nitrided or heat treated in any way, shape, or form.

 

I consider the value of any firearm that has had its metallurgy altered in any way (that includes the ever popular Melonite/Tenifer/QPQ processes) to be worthless because its design specifications have been violated without OEM approval.

 

I'm just saying this from my point of view as an industry professional in mfg to educate others.  I will not respond to any argumentative posts challenging what I say about this.

Edited April 18, 2019 by elguapo

[himurax13]

Lol. I've been in the metal/fabrication business for over 25 years, and I will never claim that I know everything about it. I trust the people that do it for a living, that is why I always ask them. I can tell you how they do it but it wouldn't help you, to do it right it takes special equipment and a lot of knowledge.

So in short, everyone who polishes the sear engagement surfaces of the hammer or makes the hooks shorter is removing the original case hardening or is that not the case?

Since it seems that the proper heat treating and quenching equipment/techniques are out of the realm of most hobbyists and gunsmiths, so it never gets done?

Are Tool steel/stainless steel hammers the only way to go?

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[Kurusty]

Polishing=removal. Don't be afraid to do it, I've done it to almost every gun I have, including rifles and they all still function properly. I don't see the need to harden them because they are wearable items. The worst that can happen is you screw it and replace it with an after market part that is machined instead of most OEM parts that are MIM. there is also nothing wrong with most of the MIM parts, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[himurax13]

Polishing=removal. Don't be afraid to do it, I've done it to almost every gun I have, including rifles and they all still function properly. I don't see the need to harden them because they are wearable items. The worst that can happen is you screw it and replace it with an after market part that is machined instead of most OEM parts that are MIM. there is also nothing wrong with most of the MIM parts, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Well I have read articles and posts in the past that after polishing/stoning that hammers should be heat treated. Yet I have never heard of anyone actually doing so.

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[Kurusty]

That's why I say that it's my opinion, I'm not the expert. [emoji3] All materials have a life expectancy, that's why I don't mind experimenting with "my" own stuff. Guns are like cars, nobody likes stock parts, everybody wants that little extra.

[himurax13]

That's why I say that it's my opinion, I'm not the expert. [emoji3] All materials have a life expectancy, that's why I don't mind experimenting with "my" own stuff. Guns are like cars, nobody likes stock parts, everybody wants that little extra.

Well what I am getting at is that these articles/post suggested that polishing and shortening hammer hooks would remove the case hardening and drastically reduce its wear resistance. They recommended heat treating and quenching for longevity.

However it didn't say how to do this or who provided this service. I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who did.

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[johnbu]

Google "case hardening at home"

[yigal]

tanfoglio don't use cheep metals  that need quenching in water . they use oil  steels.

but  i couldn't  promise  that they complete  the all hardening procedure   in mondays 

[elguapo]

15 hours ago, himurax13 said:

So in short, everyone who polishes the sear engagement surfaces of the hammer or makes the hooks shorter is removing the original case hardening 

 

That depends on how deep the effective case depth is vs how much material you remove while polishing.

 

Since one doesn't have access to factory prints, one doesn't know how deep the case is before hardness trails off below the minimum required.  On the other hand, polishing should remove only the high spots on the surface and very little (.001" or less) beyond that.

 

Case depths are typically (but not always) somewhere between .010" to .030"

[elguapo]

11 hours ago, johnbu said:

Google "case hardening at home"

 

Do you have the equipment to measure surface hardness at home?  I guarantee you don't have the equipment needed to do a hardness traverse which is how one measures case hardness and depth.

[yigal]

31 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Do you have the equipment to measure surface hardness at home?  I guarantee you don't have the equipment needed to do a hardness traverse which is how one measures case hardness and depth.

there is a color table  for thermal treatment .

and check the metal with file. it's not accurate but for experienced worker it works.

Edited April 19, 2019 by yigal

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, yigal said:

there is a color table  for thermal treatment .

and check the metal with file. it's not accurate but for experienced worker it works.

 

That stuff works for farm tools and other stuff like that.

 

I do this for a living.  I kinda know what I'm talking about.

[yigal]

4 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

That stuff works for farm tools and other stuff like that.

 

I do this for a living.  I kinda know what I'm talking about.

of coarse. i am in same profession  

but i am leaving in desert

[elguapo]

2 minutes ago, yigal said:

but i am leaving in desert

 

Hey, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do to get by.

[Jim Watson]

In a bygone era, it was well known that Smith & Wesson action parts were case hardened - they even copyrighted the appearance to cut down on Spanish knockoffs - but that Colt internals were through hardened. 

 

Now we have forty-leven manufacturers, each with his own ideas and a metals catalog. 

So that can of Kasenit that my old line gunsmith neighbor kept handy would not be much use. 

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

In a bygone era, it was well known that Smith & Wesson action parts were case hardened - they even copyrighted the appearance to cut down on Spanish knockoffs - but that Colt internals were through hardened. 

 

Now we have forty-leven manufacturers, each with his own ideas and a metals catalog. 

So that can of Kasenit that my old line gunsmith neighbor kept handy would not be much use. 

 

Case hardening is still done today by pretty much everyone (including S&W) on the parts that they have decided need it, even if you don't see the colorations left on the unfinished steel by the bone and charcoal method.  There are many ways to case harden steel, including every amateur gunsmith's favorite "finish": nitriding (which is not a finish in any way, shape, or form).

 

To be completely honest most of the old school "knowledge" is probably BS, as it's virtually impossible to tell a through hardened part from a case hardened part just by looking at them.

 

But I'm sure someone will tell me they read so and so on the internet so what would I know.......