Starting COF loaded, on an Unloaded start

[JohnStewart]

We run a monthly USPSA match, with complex stages and a fairly large attendance - which is meant to say that timing & efficiency of the day is a focal point.  Our objective is to adhere to Level II rules. We rarely take advantage of the Level I exceptions.  The perspective of "it's just a local match" isn't one that we generally follow for this match.  We strive to be safe, have fun and host challenging stages similar to what we would see at a major match.  With that said, like at most Level I local matches, we don't have dedicated ROs on each stage.  We leverage ROs rotating through their squad as they move from stage to stage.  This does create some challenges...

 

Recently, we had a stage with an unloaded start.  The first squad of the day ran nearly all of their shooters without realizing it was meant to be unloaded.  Meaning, the majority of that first squad ran the stage with a loaded start.  When they had only a couple of shooters remaining, someone realized the ready condition specified an unloaded start, so they paused and sought to find the MDs to decide how to handle the situation.

 

My question is: What do the rules say we should do at that point??  I've been researching to find that answer.. and would like your input.

 

8.2.2 says "A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire". 

I also see that "start condition" is defined in the glossary as: "The condition of the firearm prior to commencement of the course of fire (e.g., loaded, unloaded, safety applied, etc.)."  So, this rule seems to clearly apply to our scenario. Rule said: RESHOOT

 

10.1.1 says that "Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."  Does this apply?  The term "procedures" is not defined in the glossary.  Specifically I wonder if this rule is meant to apply only to the Stage Procedure section of the WSB (the "engage targets within fault lines" section), or if it is meant to apply to all statements in the WSB (including the ready condition)?  The wording has me thinking it is intended to include all sections of the WSB, which would mean this rule would apply. Rule said: ASSESS 1 PROCEDURAL PENALTY

 

10.2.2 is in the "Specific Examples" section of Procedural Penalties, and it says "A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.".  I again read that wording of "comply with the procedure specified" to suggest that it means comply with the entire WSB.  This merely reinforces that it applies.

 

I haven't seen any other rules which would apply.  Do you??

 

Both 8.2.2 and 10.1.1/10.2.2 (I'm treating those as equivalent) seem to apply and they specify different outcomes. 

 

If both rules indeed apply - is it just up to the MD to choose which one to apply at that point??

[HCH]

I would reshoot the squad that didn’t follow the WSB. It sounds as though there was some miscommunication, which happens. If the entire squad decided not to follow the WSB to gain an advantage, I’d give them procedurals. 

 

But it in all actuality, just reshoot. 

[open17]

So how did the entire squad not pay attention?     (Everybody that shot it loaded gets a re-shoot)

 

Written Stage Briefings 3.2.1 A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information: — Scoring Method — Targets (type & number) — Minimum number of rounds — The firearm ready condition — Start position (this should be demonstrated by a Range Officer) — Time starts (audible or visual signal) — Procedure 3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad.

Edited April 17, 2019 by open17

[StealthyBlagga]

8 minutes ago, open17 said:

So how did the entire squad not pay attention?     (Everybody that shot it loaded gets a re-shoot)

 

Probably "Monkey See - Monkey Do"... it happens all the time.

 

The proper solution is to reshoot the squad (if feasible) or throw out the stage (if reshoots not feasible). I suppose if the MD knew for sure all shooters had started loaded, he could change the WSB to allow the rest of the shooters to do the same (and reshoot anyone who shot it the "right" way) if it made more logistical sense and avoided having to throw the stage out.

[bret]

17 minutes ago, JohnStewart said:

We run a monthly USPSA match, with complex stages and a fairly large attendance - which is meant to say that timing & efficiency of the day is a focal point.  Our objective is to adhere to Level II rules. We rarely take advantage of the Level I exceptions.  The perspective of "it's just a local match" isn't one that we generally follow for this match.  We strive to be safe, have fun and host challenging stages similar to what we would see at a major match.  With that said, like at most Level I local matches, we don't have dedicated ROs on each stage.  We leverage ROs rotating through their squad as they move from stage to stage.  This does create some challenges...

 

Recently, we had a stage with an unloaded start.  The first squad of the day ran nearly all of their shooters without realizing it was meant to be unloaded.  Meaning, the majority of that first squad ran the stage with a loaded start.  When they had only a couple of shooters remaining, someone realized the ready condition specified an unloaded start, so they paused and sought to find the MDs to decide how to handle the situation.

 

My question is: What do the rules say we should do at that point??  I've been researching to find that answer.. and would like your input.

 

8.2.2 says "A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire". 

I also see that "start condition" is defined in the glossary as: "The condition of the firearm prior to commencement of the course of fire (e.g., loaded, unloaded, safety applied, etc.)."  So, this rule seems to clearly apply to our scenario. Rule said: RESHOOT

 

10.1.1 says that "Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."  Does this apply?  The term "procedures" is not defined in the glossary.  Specifically I wonder if this rule is meant to apply only to the Stage Procedure section of the WSB (the "engage targets within fault lines" section), or if it is meant to apply to all statements in the WSB (including the ready condition)?  The wording has me thinking it is intended to include all sections of the WSB, which would mean this rule would apply. Rule said: ASSESS 1 PROCEDURAL PENALTY

 

10.2.2 is in the "Specific Examples" section of Procedural Penalties, and it says "A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.".  I again read that wording of "comply with the procedure specified" to suggest that it means comply with the entire WSB.  This merely reinforces that it applies.

 

I haven't seen any other rules which would apply.  Do you??

 

Both 8.2.2 and 10.1.1/10.2.2 (I'm treating those as equivalent) seem to apply and they specify different outcomes. 

 

If both rules indeed apply - is it just up to the MD to choose which one to apply at that point??

the RM can reshoot all the shooters that started wrong loaded, or change the WSB to loaded and reshoot all of the people that shot it unloaded, or toss the stage.

The R.O. screwed up, he should not have started a shooter in the wrong start position.

This is the problem when you have imbedded R.O.'s that No one is in Charge of the stage, if it is being run like a Level II, have a CRO on the stage and follow the rules and actually read the WSB to everyone like you are supposed to.

[MikeBurgess]

Being it was the first squad of the match I would have changed the WSB to match what everyone already did so as to avoid having to reshoot the whole (or majority of) squad. if it was a later squad or you find that more than one squad messed it up then toss the stage. I have done both as MD/RM at out local matches

 

[JohnStewart]

39 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Being it was the first squad of the match I would have changed the WSB to match what everyone already did so as to avoid having to reshoot the whole (or majority of) squad. if it was a later squad or you find that more than one squad messed it up then toss the stage. I have done both as MD/RM at out local matches

 

 

This is what we did when it happened, since it was the first squad and to minimize the delays for the entire match.  We updated the WSB to make it a loaded start and continued on.  However, that was in the stage design for a purpose - in the future I'd rather not change the WSB.  If it were a Level II match, I don't think we would change the WSB. 

 

So, I'm now trying to clarify exactly what the rules direct us to do, in case it happens again. 

[bret]

14 minutes ago, JohnStewart said:

 

 

So, I'm now trying to clarify exactly what the rules direct us to do, in case it happens again. 

Reshoot all of the competitors that did not start in the proper start position/condition.

[Mcfoto]

When I've been in squads where the start position is done wrong for the first couple shooters, and the RO didn't know better, this applied:

 

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire.

 

And they were offered re-shoots. I think procedurals kick in when the RO knows the start position and the shooter violates it. 

 

Once I was on a squad where we had shot our first stage incorrectly (in this case it was facing downrange). The MD/ RM discovered it at the second squad. He came to us and offered us the choice of staying after the match and re-shooting it last or taking a zero for the stage. Most took the re-shoot.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Mcfoto

[CHA-LEE]

The rules are very clear in this situation. You have three options. 1 - Keep the WSB as is and reshoot all of the competitors that shot it loaded. 2 - If there isn't enough time to reshoot all of the competitors, then you throw out the stage. 3 - If the incorrect start position is caught soon enough (first squad on the stage) but too many have already shot it to make it viable to reshoot all of them, then the change the WSB to a loaded start.

 

To issue Procedurals or Unsportsmanlike Conduct DQ's you need some pretty solid evidence that the competitors were intentionally trying to cheat by using a loaded start condition. 99.9% of the time, these gun ready condition mistakes are completely accidental as nobody reads the WSB and just does the default loaded gun condition or a follow the leader situation happens.

 

To avoid this in the future you can help mitigate these problems by defining abnormal start positions or stage procedures in the Shooters Meeting before the match starts. Such as "Stage 1 is an UNLOADED start" then ask the shooters what an Unloaded start means from a gun ready condition. This forces then to pay attention and actually think about it at least once during the match. Hopefully that is enough to make it stick in their minds during the match.

 

Another solution is to seed each squad with a shooter that serves as the CRO and they are tasked with reading the WSB word for word and enforcing the stage requirements. They don't have to RO the whole time. They simply have to ensure that the squad is adhering to the WSB and officiating is being performed in a proper manner.

[DKorn]

As has been said, per the rules you could either reshoot the people who started loaded, change the WSB, or toss the stage. I can’t see justifying procedurals for this under pretty much any circumstances, since it’s on the RO to not start the competitor unless they are in the correct start position and ready condition. I guess I could see procedurals or unsportsmanlike conduct if the RO and shooter were working together to try to gain an advantage, but that seems pretty unlikely to me. 

 

Best practices I can think of to help prevent this issue (most of these have been mentioned):

-Have an actual WSB, not just a stage diagram with the little bit of information that’s typically on there. 

-Bold or put in ALL CAPS (or BOTH) key words in the WSB. Things like unloaded starts, loaded/unloaded when it’s a table start, disappearing targets, activators, magazines on table, etc. Basically anything that’s unusual and needs to be specifically emphasized. 

-If you’re doing embedded ROs, have a designated “CRO” or main RO for each squad, and make sure that they’re reading the actual WSB.

-As MD/RM, go around early in the match and make sure that nothing funky is going on and nobody has any questions about the WSBs or anything on the stages. Yes, this means you’ll probably either not get to shoot, have to shoot whenever you can with whatever squad, or have to ruin your walkthrough for your first stage. I don’t see a way around that if you want to do a good job. 

[JohnStewart]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

The rules are very clear in this situation. You have three options. 1 - Keep the WSB as is and reshoot all of the competitors that shot it loaded. 2 - If there isn't enough time to reshoot all of the competitors, then you throw out the stage. 3 - If the incorrect start position is caught soon enough (first squad on the stage) but too many have already shot it to make it viable to reshoot all of them, then the change the WSB to a loaded start.

 

To issue Procedurals or Unsportsmanlike Conduct DQ's you need some pretty solid evidence that the competitors were intentionally trying to cheat by using a loaded start condition. 99.9% of the time, these gun ready condition mistakes are completely accidental as nobody reads the WSB and just does the default loaded gun condition or a follow the leader situation happens.

So, to get back to the specific rules - you are basically saying that 8.2.2 applies but that 10.2.2 doesn't apply. 

 

But, why doesn't 10.2.2 apply?  The rule doesn't reference intention to try to cheat, it simply states that a competitor who fails to comply with the procedure gets a Procedural.  I'm just trying to understand what about the rule eliminates it from applicability.

 

 

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

To avoid this in the future you can help mitigate these problems by defining abnormal start positions or stage procedures in the Shooters Meeting before the match starts. Such as "Stage 1 is an UNLOADED start" then ask the shooters what an Unloaded start means from a gun ready condition. This forces then to pay attention and actually think about it at least once during the match. Hopefully that is enough to make it stick in their minds during the match.

 

Another solution is to seed each squad with a shooter that serves as the CRO and they are tasked with reading the WSB word for word and enforcing the stage requirements. They don't have to RO the whole time. They simply have to ensure that the squad is adhering to the WSB and officiating is being performed in a proper manner.

Those are both good ideas, thanks for that!  I'll definitely be making more of a point to highlight "abnormal" start positions.  Frankly, at the time I didn't consider that very abnormal for a USPSA match - but I get that many people will assume it's a loaded start.

[bret]

John Stewart,

 

The Range Officer is not to start the shooter until they are in the proper start position.

 

If the Range Officer started them with a loaded gun on an unloaded start, the range officer is at fault. 

[MikeBurgess]

 

5 minutes ago, JohnStewart said:

So, to get back to the specific rules - you are basically saying that 8.2.2 applies but that 10.2.2 doesn't apply. 

 

But, why doesn't 10.2.2 apply?  The rule doesn't reference intention to try to cheat, it simply states that a competitor who fails to comply with the procedure gets a Procedural.  I'm just trying to understand what about the rule eliminates it from applicability.

 

 

 

10.2.2 doesn't apply because Start position and Stage procedure are not the same thing. one is where and how to be before the start signal the other is what to do after the start signal.

 

edit to add

you can give all the procedurals you wan to the shooter for their first run but since the Rules say you MUST order a reshoot because of the incorrect start position then its mute as the score is either zero for not reshooting the stage or whatever the new score is for the reshoot.

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by MikeBurgess

[JohnStewart]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

10.2.2 doesn't apply because Start position and Stage procedure are not the same thing. one is where and how to be before the start signal the other is what to do after the start signal.

 

 

OK, I get that logic - reading "procedure specified in the WSB" to be literally referencing the Stage Procedure and not inclusive of the firearm ready condition.  Cool... thanks!

[CHA-LEE]

As an MD and Competitor I like to say "Every Stage provides the opportunity to make the wrong decision". As an MD we need to do our best to minimize the opportunities for people to make the wrong decision by providing as much proactive support as possible. For your specific scenario this means that WSB's need to be written solidly leaving nothing to interpretation. We need to communicate abnormal start positions or procedures to the masses multiple times. Once during the shooters meeting and yet again when the RO/CRO reads the WSB to the squad. Each squad must be seeded with at least 1 shooter that can serve as the CRO and "Go To" person for basic questions as well as ensure that the squad is adhering to the WSB and officiating is accurate.

 

If you do all of that and people still screw it up, then you have to accept that you can't fix stupid. These idiots need to be dealt with on a one on one basis. This isn't a fun thing to deal with but its also part of the job as being the MD. Every time I have had to deal with these types of shooters the recommendation is simple. Get with the program or don't RO. We can't afford to have people like that derail matches due to their incompetence. Just because its a volunteer sport doesn't justify an RO doing a half ass job. Either do the job right or don't do it.

[davsco]

in the wsb, highlight or bold anything that isn't status quo.  unloaded start, 3 shots per target, etc.  or as mentioned above, discuss changes from normal at the safety brief.

[RJH]

Assuming that the stages listed had WSB (big assumption) how the hell does the WHOLE squad not read them?  That is literally the first thing that should happen when you show up on your stage, and that is just as a shooter.  Even if the RO doesn't read it out loud, (I know they should), every competitor should read it for themselves, if for no other reason than to look for places to game the stage

[JohnStewart]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

Assuming that the stages listed had WSB (big assumption) how the hell does the WHOLE squad not read them? 

 

I agree - it's frustrating.  We definitely prepare WSB, and have them hanging in laminated covers at each stage.  This stage had this one:

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

That is literally the first thing that should happen when you show up on your stage, and that is just as a shooter.  Even if the RO doesn't read it out loud, (I know they should), every competitor should read it for themselves, if for no other reason than to look for places to game the stage

Agreed.  Obviously it didn't happen.

[CHA-LEE]

16 hours ago, JohnStewart said:

 

I agree - it's frustrating.  We definitely prepare WSB, and have them hanging in laminated covers at each stage.  This stage had this one:

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  Obviously it didn't happen.

Wait a minute.......... Look at the verbiage in your WSB. It has contradictory information. The first line says "Unloaded" then you quote Rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 which define the LOADED and holstered gun requirements. For unloaded starts, if you are going to list the associated Rule it should be 8.1.3 which defines what the UNLOADED gun ready condition requirements are. 

 

I can totally see someone scanning through the WSB seeing rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 and using that to justify a Loaded start.

 

You can't put conflicting or inaccurate information in the WSB and expect people to do what you "intended" them to do. You also can't cherry pick portions of rules that you want to enforce but ignore the things you don't want. This goes back to what I said before about limiting the opportunity for people to screw stuff up.

[DKorn]

Just now, CHA-LEE said:

Wait a minute.......... Look at the verbiage in your WSB. It has contradictory information. The first line says "Unloaded" then you quote Rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 which define the LOADED and holstered gun requirements. For unloaded starts, if you are going to list the associated Rule it should be 8.1.3 which defines what the UNLOADED gun ready condition requirements are. 

 

I can totally see someone scanning through the WSB seeing rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 and using that to justify a Loaded start.

 

You can't put conflicting or inaccurate information in the WSB and expect people to do what you "intended" them to do. You also can't cherry pick portions of rules that you want to enforce but ignore the things you don't want. This goes back to what I said before about limiting the opportunity for people to screw stuff up.

 

 

16 hours ago, JohnStewart said:

 

I agree - it's frustrating.  We definitely prepare WSB, and have them hanging in laminated covers at each stage.  This stage had this one:

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  Obviously it didn't happen.

 

Also, there’s no reason to mention any of the applicable rule numbers in the WSB. It’s unnecessary information since it’s assumed to be true anyway. 

 

Same thing with the swinger- once you state that it’s disappearing, all the details about NPMs are already in the rulebook and don’t need to be part of the WSB. You should probably add in a line about what activates the swinger. 

 

At least you don’t have my least favorite line in WSBs - “All penalties will be per the current USPSA rulebook.” We’re at a USPSA match. What on earth else would they be per!?

[ATLDave]

Why do people feel the compulsion to recite "per 8.1.1 and 8.1.2" in WSB?  The parent rule - 8.1 - specifies that those are the default.  If you just say "loaded and holstered," then 8.1.1 and 8.1.2 apply. 

 

It's like saying "high rate of speed."  All speed is a rate.  There is literally no difference in meaning between "traveling at a high speed" and "traveling at a high rate of speed" except some people think the latter sounds more O-fficial or more smarterer.  

[ATLDave]

3 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Also, there’s no reason to mention any of the applicable rule numbers in the WSB. It’s unnecessary information since it’s assumed to be true anyway. 

 

Same thing with the swinger- once you state that it’s disappearing, all the details about NPMs are already in the rulebook and don’t need to be part of the WSB. You should probably add in a line about what activates the swinger. 

 

At least you don’t have my least favorite line in WSBs - “All penalties will be per the current USPSA rulebook.” We’re at a USPSA match. What on earth else would they be per!?

 

Precisely.  Thank you.

[JohnStewart]

12 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Wait a minute.......... Look at the verbiage in your WSB. It has contradictory information. The first line says "Unloaded" then you quote Rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 which define the LOADED and holstered gun requirements. For unloaded starts, if you are going to list the associated Rule it should be 8.1.3 which defines what the UNLOADED gun ready condition requirements are. 

 

I can totally see someone scanning through the WSB seeing rules 8.1.1 & 8.1.2 and using that to justify a Loaded start.

 

You can't put conflicting or inaccurate information in the WSB and expect people to do what you "intended" them to do. You also can't cherry pick portions of rules that you want to enforce but ignore the things you don't want. This goes back to what I said before about limiting the opportunity for people to screw stuff up.

CHA-LEE - That's a very good point, thanks for pointing that out.  

[JohnStewart]

6 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Why do people feel the compulsion to recite "per 8.1.1 and 8.1.2" in WSB?  The parent rule - 8.1 - specifies that those are the default.  If you just say "loaded and holstered," then 8.1.1 and 8.1.2 apply. 

 

It's like saying "high rate of speed."  All speed is a rate.  There is literally no difference in meaning between "traveling at a high speed" and "traveling at a high rate of speed" except some people think the latter sounds more O-fficial or more smarterer.  

Also a very good point.  I'll consider removing those in future matches.  Thanks!