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hlpressley

New CZ Action Parts from Apex Tactical

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I like the idea of having a more defined wall in SA. 

 

 

 

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The Apex kit does nothing for DA but is designed to make SA heavier with a wall.
This was achieved by increasing the height of the SA hooks on the hammer. The angles of the hooks and the sear are also changed to add weight in SA. Apex is trying to make a DA/SA CZ feel like a horrible stock striker gun.

Apex needs to stick with what they do best and this is not it.

OP if you desire more wall in SA you can achieve this by stoning material off of the hammer in front of the hooks where the sear rests in SA.

When somebody figures out how to get the DA around 3.5lbs and set off any primer I'll be interested.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

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I'm assuming that you've tried their kit to base your opinion?

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4 hours ago, Kurusty said:

I'm assuming that you've tried their kit to base your opinion?

Not going to waste my money on that garbage.

Just explaining to the OP how to get the same trigger for free minus a few minutes of stoning.

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No need to talk talk something that you have never used, that's my point.

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1 minute ago, Kurusty said:

No need to talk talk something that you have never used, that's my point.

Going off of what the guy in the video said and seeing the pictures of the parts they supply in the kit.

 

Why dont you buy a kit and do review on it. Then Ill listen and maybe care about what you have to say.

 

 

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Why don't both of you watch the attitudes? 

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Just now, GrumpyOne said:

Why don't both of you watch the attitudes? 

Sorry Grumpyone 

I was just trying to explain to the OP how to get a similar trigger. I will stay off this post. 

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Why don't both of you watch the attitudes? 
No problem

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I wonder if you can drop the hammer into a TacSport to increase trigger weight?

 

Some have found them to be too light out of the box.

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38 minutes ago, NoKimberDave said:

I wonder if you can drop the hammer into a TacSport to increase trigger weight?

 

Some have found them to be too light out of the box.

My tan trigger is so light I got dq once cause if it lol.

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Just now, Czgunsalot said:

My tan trigger is so light I got dq once cause if it lol.

 

I've let a few stray shots go myself!

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, NoKimberDave said:

I wonder if you can drop the hammer into a TacSport to increase trigger weight?

 

Some have found them to be too light out of the box.

 i can make it DA if u want.😀

or striker 🙉

Edited by yigal

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52 minutes ago, yigal said:

 i can make it DA if u want.😀

or striker 🙉

?🤔

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I was simply sharing something that I ran across on the web. Didn’t mean to cause a storm..

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I was simply sharing something that I ran across on the web. Didn’t mean to cause a storm..
Lol, you didn't cause anything, the storm has passed.
I'm anxious to try this, but both of my CZs are running good. I might have to buy a Shadow 2 again now.. I gave it up shortly only because the magazine release was cutting support hand. It was an amazing shooter though.

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3 hours ago, hlpressley said:

I was simply sharing something that I ran across on the web. Didn’t mean to cause a storm..

for 250 million US citizens 15 replies it's not a storm.😀

try post : about oil and grease 😉

if u have demands for your product good lack 👍 what good for me will   not  suit for somebody else.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2019 at 2:20 PM, yigal said:

 i can make it DA if u want.😀

or striker 🙉

 

Why would I want to ruin a perfectly good gun??!!

 

Edit: and I quite like my TSO trigger!

Edited by NoKimberDave

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I believe it might be time to shed a little light on the kits that I had a hand in designing. I also need to emphasize that the descriptions and function of our parts in one early post are absolutely wrong and were based upon pictures of our parts. I know this because our parts had not been released yet.

 

For a little background (since I assume most here do not know who I am) I started working on guns some 30 years ago, beginning with refining the DA on Smith revolvers. I believe that qualifies me to know what constitutes a good DA trigger pull. From there, the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power work I have done led me to understand what a good single action should feel like.

While trigger "feel" is subjective, it is a good place to start when you decide to engineer a fire control system. I use the term "system" because the hammer, sear, mainspring and firing pin spring were designed to work in conjunction with one another and in balance.

 

The CZ trigger system by design has tremendous mechanical advantage by design. That translates into the potential for very light DA and SA pulls. But that can sometimes get people into trouble-myself included. As I so poorly expressed in front of the camera, this is one of the reasons I wanted to make our kit. 

 

We started the project by using a TriggerScan on a factory stock Shadow 2. The device digitally maps out force over the distance of the trigger stroke. It shows us exactly what is happening during both DA and SA pulls. This allowed us to set the geometry of the hammer to provide a very linear stroke in DA. So to say that our kit does nothing for the DA is incorrect.

 

Bringing up the pressure wall for single action is more complex that just raising the SA hooks or lowering the sear bedding surface. Doing so can often lead to timing issues especially when you consider tolerance stacking from gun to gun. The compound leverage of the pivoting trigger system tends to overcome the static holding force of the sear against the hammer hooks- especially if you want to maintain a 5 lb double action. The result is a spongy single action that is usually at the exact same weight as when you started. So again, information portrayed  earlier about our hammer and sear geometries are inaccurate. Unless you have access to an optical comparator or an OMM like we do, you cannot see what we have done to achieve the increase in SA wall pressure. The hook and sear profiles are done by wire EDM so that the relationship between the two are not simple angles. The surfaces act more like fitted puzzle pieces than what you are used to seeing in a 1911 type hammer/sear relationship. It was the only way to reduce some of the compound advantage of the CZ trigger assembly without making the SA feel like crap. The SA actually feels good to me and suits my trigger prepping style as I can feel the defined break point. 

 

In order for us to bring any trigger kit to market, it also has to pass our drop test which consists of dropping the gun from a height of 6 feet onto a concrete slab in 27 different orientations. In this case, it was painful to watch a Shadow 2 be dropped 54 times since it had to be dropped in DA and SA modes.

 

My final words are these: Both CZ Custom and CGW make excellent parts, and I am sure that many reading this are more than pleased with their parts. I consider Angus and Stuart over at CZ Custom friends. In fact, I just received my A01-LD which was hand delivered by Angus, and it is truly an exceptional pistol. I still order and install parts from both CZC and CGW into friend's pistols when they want the light DA/SA setup. We are just another option for those who want a light DA but slightly heavier SA.

 

-Randy

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for elaborating Randy. I have some questions.

 

I see that there are two different kits available for the Shadow 2 and the CZ75B. What is different about the two models that necessitates separate kits? I recognize there there is a sear width difference in a sear from a FPB model (75B) to a non-FPB (S2) model. Are there other differences than the width of the two sears that you offer? If not, was a spacer considered during the design possess so that one narrow sear could be used for both models?

 

If they are comparable to some of the other hammer spring available, what is the weight of the two different hammer springs that come with your kits? For clarity i am aware that a given hammer spring weight may not play the same with you parts as it dose with other available parts but i am still curious.

 

Is hand fitting of the new sear required to renew proper safety lever function with your kits?

 

Thank you for any input on the matter. I am always glad to see more CZ tuning parts on offer and i look forward to possibly experimenting with yours at some point.

Edited by Tok36

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On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 2:03 PM, NoKimberDave said:

 

I've let a few stray shots go myself!

BTDT.  I try to do a few dry fires when I do take it to the range to help me "realize" it's not a standard CZ75.

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11 hours ago, Tok36 said:

Thank you for elaborating Randy. I have some questions.

 

I see that there are two different kits available for the Shadow 2 and the CZ75B. What is different about the two models that necessitates separate kits? I recognize there there is a sear width difference in a sear from a FPB model (75B) to a non-FPB (S2) model. Are there other differences than the width of the two sears that you offer? If not, was a spacer considered during the design possess so that one narrow sear could be used for both models?

 

If they are comparable to some of the other hammer spring available, what is the weight of the two different hammer springs that come with your kits? For clarity i am aware that a given hammer spring weight may not play the same with you parts as it dose with other available parts but i am still curious.

 

Is hand fitting of the new sear required to renew proper safety lever function with your kits?

 

Thank you for any input on the matter. I am always glad to see more CZ tuning parts on offer and i look forward to possibly experimenting with yours at some point.

Hi Tok,

 

Both the sear and hammer on the 75B kit are narrower. The sear needed to allow the fpb lifter, so that the inherent safety system could be preserved. A large percentage of our customers don't shoot competition but rather use their pistols for carry or self defense, so we opted to make the sears specific to each variant so that pistols with the FPB could maintain all factory safety values.

 

The 75B slides have a narrow window for the hammer than the Pre-B series. While we could have just made one hammer, I think the cosmetics would look odd as viewed from the rear with a narrow hammer in the wider window of the Shadow 2.

 

I personally don't like the use of a spacer in the sear cage and since it invites people to deactivate a factory safety, that would open up my company to unnecessary liability.

 

Our springs are roughly equivalent to an 11.5 mainspring and the heavier being about a lb heavier. Both CZ Custom and Cajun offer additional weights for people to try. For our testing the springs we provide offered us the best linear DA pull and SA weight  range for a competition while maintaining reliable ignition with CCI primers. The heavier rated purple spring is included for carry or in case someone is using harder primers.

 

We designed the hammer and sear so that they should fit in most guns without the need to fit the safety or safety leg on the sear. That being said, we cannot anticipate all the tolerance stacking possibilities from gun to gun so there is always the possibility that dressing down either surface might be necessary. This should only require .001" - .002" of material removal.

This is assuming that the gun has the original safety as fitted by the factory. 

 

-Randy

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I handled an S2 with the Apex kit installed at Apex's booth they had at a local gun shop's anniversary sale. The SA pull weight was just slightly lower than the DA on my uncalibrated finger, with a very defined wall, nearly 0 creep (almost imperceptible to mine and a friend's eye), and a crisp, clean break. It compared well to my S2 with some CGW parts dropped in, and my friend's S1 with a full CZC trigger job on it. Pull weight may have been higher but with the break so clean and minimal creep I didn't really care what it measured at.

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On 5/21/2019 at 9:23 PM, Randy Lee said:

I believe it might be time to shed a little light on the kits that I had a hand in designing. I also need to emphasize that the descriptions and function of our parts in one early post are absolutely wrong and were based upon pictures of our parts. I know this because our parts had not been released yet.

 

For a little background (since I assume most here do not know who I am) I started working on guns some 30 years ago, beginning with refining the DA on Smith revolvers. I believe that qualifies me to know what constitutes a good DA trigger pull. From there, the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power work I have done led me to understand what a good single action should feel like.

While trigger "feel" is subjective, it is a good place to start when you decide to engineer a fire control system. I use the term "system" because the hammer, sear, mainspring and firing pin spring were designed to work in conjunction with one another and in balance.

 

The CZ trigger system by design has tremendous mechanical advantage by design. That translates into the potential for very light DA and SA pulls. But that can sometimes get people into trouble-myself included. As I so poorly expressed in front of the camera, this is one of the reasons I wanted to make our kit. 

 

We started the project by using a TriggerScan on a factory stock Shadow 2. The device digitally maps out force over the distance of the trigger stroke. It shows us exactly what is happening during both DA and SA pulls. This allowed us to set the geometry of the hammer to provide a very linear stroke in DA. So to say that our kit does nothing for the DA is incorrect.

 

Bringing up the pressure wall for single action is more complex that just raising the SA hooks or lowering the sear bedding surface. Doing so can often lead to timing issues especially when you consider tolerance stacking from gun to gun. The compound leverage of the pivoting trigger system tends to overcome the static holding force of the sear against the hammer hooks- especially if you want to maintain a 5 lb double action. The result is a spongy single action that is usually at the exact same weight as when you started. So again, information portrayed  earlier about our hammer and sear geometries are inaccurate. Unless you have access to an optical comparator or an OMM like we do, you cannot see what we have done to achieve the increase in SA wall pressure. The hook and sear profiles are done by wire EDM so that the relationship between the two are not simple angles. The surfaces act more like fitted puzzle pieces than what you are used to seeing in a 1911 type hammer/sear relationship. It was the only way to reduce some of the compound advantage of the CZ trigger assembly without making the SA feel like crap. The SA actually feels good to me and suits my trigger prepping style as I can feel the defined break point. 

 

In order for us to bring any trigger kit to market, it also has to pass our drop test which consists of dropping the gun from a height of 6 feet onto a concrete slab in 27 different orientations. In this case, it was painful to watch a Shadow 2 be dropped 54 times since it had to be dropped in DA and SA modes.

 

My final words are these: Both CZ Custom and CGW make excellent parts, and I am sure that many reading this are more than pleased with their parts. I consider Angus and Stuart over at CZ Custom friends. In fact, I just received my A01-LD which was hand delivered by Angus, and it is truly an exceptional pistol. I still order and install parts from both CZC and CGW into friend's pistols when they want the light DA/SA setup. We are just another option for those who want a light DA but slightly heavier SA.

 

-Randy

 

 

 

 

Will this be compatible with other trigger parts from other companies.  

example I have the cgw reach reduction kit 

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16 hours ago, Czgunsalot said:

Will this be compatible with other trigger parts from other companies.  

example I have the cgw reach reduction kit 

We haven't tested it with other parts as it opens up a whole can of worms in terms of liability for all parties involved. 

Our kit was designed to work around the idea that the hammer should maintain maximum rearward travel to increase primer ignition. I believe the short reach systems may shorten the hammer arc which might reduce ignition for some types of ammunition.

 

What I can say is that I do not recommend extended firing pins with our kits.

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