Strategies for increasing double tap accuracy and speed?

[matteekay]

I did some draw and fire practice with my IDPA rig today (4" 686 shooting .357) and definitely noticed a difference with a tighter grip. I also noticed that I really liked the Bill Davis grips I'd put on... until my hands starting sweating, lol. Should be fine for short IDPA stages, though.

[MWP]

Grabbing the gun as hard as you can is a good start. Keep doing that.

[MattInTheHat]

I wish I could grab the gun as hard as I used to, but post-injury I don't want to risk it, plus I'm plain-old in worse shape and older than I was. The ideas I'm going to use:

 

1. The grip needs to be tight enough to return the sights faster than you can pull the trigger cleanly, remembering that 

2.  You need to pull the trigger cleanly enough not to disturb the sight picture

 

That's circular and changes with distance/target difficulty, with minor loads it's a different amount than with major. I used to crush the gun and yank the trigger as fast as I could, letting the grip cancel the yank. Think I have to make some changes these days.

Edited April 29, 2019 by MattInTheHat

[Makicjf]

3 hours ago, MattInTheHat said:

I wish I could grab the gun as hard as I used to, but post-injury I don't want to risk it, plus I'm plain-old in worse shape and older than I was. The ideas I'm going to use:

 

1. The grip needs to be tight enough to return the sights faster than you can pull the trigger cleanly, remembering that 

2.  You need to pull the trigger cleanly enough not to disturb the sight picture

 

That's circular and changes with distance/target difficulty, with minor loads it's a different amount than with major. I used to crush the gun and yank the trigger as fast as I could, letting the grip cancel the yank. Think I have to make some changes these days. 

"....letting the grip cancel the yank"

I had a hand injury and   developed a nasty case of tendonitis in my trigger finger, plus, the insipid arthritis in my hands hates the cold...on two cold days this January I learned I was doing exactly what you described.  The first was an IDPA match where the temp was about 40 degrees and my hands were stiff...I could not grip tight and couldn't hit at all...

The next week at a USPSA match, again cold, not only was my grip weaker than normal, my trigger finger simply quit extending and I could not control well where I gripped the revo off of a reload:  I had trigger finger freeze.  Four months off from any revolver shooting and my hand is better.   But I'm going to have to refine my technique beyond " letting the grip cancel the yank"

I'm deeply interested in what you discover!

Jason

[matteekay]

For the "grip it and rip it" crowd - are you also clamping hard with your strong hand thumb (in other words, across the top of the backstrap)? I'm finding that my thumb is hitting the cylinder release when I white-knuckle it. I feel like I have a little less trigger control, too.

[MikeBurgess]

48 minutes ago, matteekay said:

For the "grip it and rip it" crowd - are you also clamping hard with your strong hand thumb (in other words, across the top of the backstrap)? I'm finding that my thumb is hitting the cylinder release when I white-knuckle it. I feel like I have a little less trigger control, too.

My grip is the same for a revo as it is for an auto,  my weak thumb ends up on the frame just below the cylinder close to the cylinder gap, so I don't grip with my strong thumb at all, it just floats above the base of my weak hand thumb (and sometimes moves a little sympathetically with my trigger finger) 

[PatJones]

For the "grip it and rip it" crowd - are you also clamping hard with your strong hand thumb (in other words, across the top of the backstrap)? I'm finding that my thumb is hitting the cylinder release when I white-knuckle it. I feel like I have a little less trigger control, too.

The strong hand thumb is low across the grip like you're making a fist. The weak hand thumb rests on top of the strong hand thumb, but it doesn't do much. This is the opposite of the thumb position for an auto.

[matteekay]

The strong hand thumb is low across the grip like you're making a fist. The weak hand thumb rests on top of the strong hand thumb, but it doesn't do much. This is the opposite of the thumb position for an auto.

I’ve never watched you closely enough. So you shoot thumbs-over, not thumbs-forward?


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[PatJones]

 

I’ve never watched you closely enough. So you shoot thumbs-over, not thumbs-forward?

 

 

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On a semi auto, the high right thumb opens up the left side of the grip so you can slide your left hand up higher.

 

On a revolver, we slide the right hand up because we can, there's no slide. The left hand is free to slide up into the same position we use on an auto because the right hand is out of the way. I find the low right thumb doesn't interfere with this, and provides a stronger grip. I don't really want my thumb anywhere near the recoil shield shooting my 44 or major 45.

 

When I change from autos to revolver each spring it takes a while to get used to it again.

 

 

 

[MattInTheHat]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:35 PM, Makicjf said:

"....letting the grip cancel the yank"

I had a hand injury and   developed a nasty case of tendonitis in my trigger finger, plus, the insipid arthritis in my hands hates the cold...on two cold days this January I learned I was doing exactly what you described.  The first was an IDPA match where the temp was about 40 degrees and my hands were stiff...I could not grip tight and couldn't hit at all...

The next week at a USPSA match, again cold, not only was my grip weaker than normal, my trigger finger simply quit extending and I could not control well where I gripped the revo off of a reload:  I had trigger finger freeze.  Four months off from any revolver shooting and my hand is better.   But I'm going to have to refine my technique beyond " letting the grip cancel the yank"

I'm deeply interested in what you discover!

Jason

Pulled a thousand or so today, I'm seeing that getting the trigger farther out towards the tip is keeping the sights steadier. This will be tough because the impulse on a timer with adrenaline is to let more finger onto the trigger, even to the joint, which requires more hand strength to overcome. The question now is can I train the more delicate position so that it doesn't leave me when things get frisky.

[Makicjf]

14 hours ago, MattInTheHat said:

Pulled a thousand or so today, I'm seeing that getting the trigger farther out towards the tip is keeping the sights steadier. This will be tough because the impulse on a timer with adrenaline is to let more finger onto the trigger, even to the joint, which requires more hand strength to overcome. The question now is can I train the more delicate position so that it doesn't leave me when things get frisky.

Would a grip which lengthens the distance to the trigger help?  Even with hogue tamers if I grasp high the natural placement of my trigger finger is in the first joint.

Jason

[pskys2]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:02 PM, MattInTheHat said:

Pulled a thousand or so today, I'm seeing that getting the trigger farther out towards the tip is keeping the sights steadier. This will be tough because the impulse on a timer with adrenaline is to let more finger onto the trigger, even to the joint, which requires more hand strength to overcome. The question now is can I train the more delicate position so that it doesn't leave me when things get frisky.

Jerry Miculek recommends that you use the tip of your trigger finger for DA work.   It also takes more hand strength to work with the tip vs the 1st joint.

[JAustin]

On 4/12/2019 at 8:49 PM, Carmoney said:

What you want to do is grab the revolver with your strong hand and grip it as hard as possible. Then wrap your weak hand around there and grip it as hard as possible also!

 

Seriously.  A loose grip never works in this game, unless you want to stay in C class forever.  The good shooters always use a very hard hold on the gun.  Always.  

Now focus on the front site, clear and sharp like your read print.

second don’t shoot at a target just shoot and concentrate on watching the front site go up and down. 

Dont let your self blink, keep your eyes open.

and finally start adjusting wrist tensions to get your front site to go straight up and straight back down and stop exactly were it started.

This drill is the root for all others. It has become very clear to me over the years without mastering the above first all I’m doing with my ammo is making just making noise

James

Edited September 10, 2019 by JAustin

[matteekay]

49 minutes ago, JAustin said:

Now focus on the front site, clear and sharp like your read print.

second don’t shoot at a target just shoot and concentrate on watching the front site go up and down. 

 

I've finally, finally starting doing this. It's a really good way to learn how fast is too fast, as well. Unfortunately, for me, too fast is probably "slow" in the grand scheme of things, lol.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

I've finally, finally starting doing this. It's a really good way to learn how fast is too fast, as well. Unfortunately, for me, too fast is probably "slow" in the grand scheme of things, lol.

one thing to go along with this is when you shoot a target don't shoot at the target shoot at a defined spot on the target, like the letter A in the A zone, the aim small miss small thing is real

[MikeBurgess]

On the main OP subject of shooting faster splits more accurately,

I have been working on this the last couple weeks and shooting a lot of doubles at various ranges, what has been working for me is to try different trigger finger positions,  I personally found that moving my trigger finger in more and using the pad between the first and second knuckles gave me less sight movement and better hits, so don't be afraid to try different things. also don't be shy about spending a lot of ammo on figuring this stuff out. Like go to the range with 300 rounds (or whatever you can spare) and use it all shooting doubles on a target at 10 yards (or 7 or whatever you need to work on) do a bunch of reps and and see what the holes in the target are telling you works. 

[Roons]

 

[MWP]

3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

one thing to go along with this is when you shoot a target don't shoot at the target shoot at a defined spot on the target, like the letter A in the A zone, the aim small miss small thing is real

I’m going to have to 100% disagree with this one. Sorry Mike. Aim small miss small is absolutely a thing, but at the cost of speed. HFs in USPSA are to high to do this in today’s game. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, MWP said:

I’m going to have to 100% disagree with this one. Sorry Mike. Aim small miss small is absolutely a thing, but at the cost of speed. HFs in USPSA are to high to do this in today’s game. 

I agree to an extent, trying to hit the letter A on the target is not a good idea.

 

I guess I could have explained my point better, I have seen several shooters that are struggling with consistent hits due to "aiming" at brown not "aiming" at the center of the A after a conversation about aiming at a spot not just brown they have generally had much improved hits without a notable time increase. 

 

I am by nature a Hoser and am constantly having to remind myself to put importance on shooting A's rather than just hammering away.

 

PS good luck this week

Edited September 10, 2019 by MikeBurgess

[MWP]

3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I agree to an extent, trying to hit the letter A on the target is not a good idea.

 

I guess I could have explained my point better, I have seen several shooters that are struggling with consistent hits due to "aiming" at brown not "aiming" at the center of the A after a conversation about aiming at a spot not just brown they have generally had much improved hits without a notable time increase. 

 

I am by nature a Hoser and am constantly having to remind myself to put importance on shooting A's rather than just hammering away.

 

PS good luck this week

Thanks. Should be a good match.