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Carry Optics is really popular

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18 hours ago, rowdyb said:

 

Shadow 2 is the most popular PRod gun right now. Not allowing a factory made version of it into CO really lessens the potential growth of all those who are CZ shooters. It would definitely increase cross pollination from Prod to CO. How this is a rules screw up is just your judgement.

 

They also  won't allow external weights to allow plastic guns to match the weight of the steel frame guns, so even internally weighted glocks etc are still considerably lighter than the steel frame guns, so it is kinda a pick your poison type thing.  Needless to say i would do things different,  but no one asked me 🙂

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Posted (edited)

In my neck of the woods, here's the number of production vs CO shooters from my matches in PS

Area 5, coming up in Sept, P: 87, CO: 44

local match coming up 7/6, P: 12, CO: 3

local match 6/30, P: 8, CO: 7

local match 6/23, P: 2, CO: 9

local match 6/9, P: 8, CO: 5

state match 6/2, P: 63, CO: 39

local match 5/26, P: 4, CO: 6

local match 5/19, P: 10, CO: 7

 

Not seeing Production being replaced by CO any time soon.  Looks like the bigger the match the farther Production pulls ahead.

 

ETA: there is one peculiar club in my area (central/western Ohio) where CO is always more popular than Prod.  That's the only one tho.

Edited by elguapo

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38 minutes ago, elguapo said:

In my neck of the woods, here's the number of production vs CO shooters from my matches in PS

Area 5, coming up in Sept, P: 87, CO: 44

local match coming up 7/6, P: 12, CO: 3

local match 6/30, P: 8, CO: 7

local match 6/23, P: 2, CO: 9

local match 6/9, P: 8, CO: 5

state match 6/2, P: 63, CO: 39

local match 5/26, P: 4, CO: 6

local match 5/19, P: 10, CO: 7

 

Not seeing Production being replaced by CO any time soon.  Looks like the bigger the match the farther Production pulls ahead.

divisions tend to be regional to a certain extent, the 2019 A1 two weeks ago had 84 CO to 64 Prod a couple years ago in this area Production was the second largest division, this year it just beat out PCC for 4th (Lim 112, Open 110, CO 84, Prod 64, PCC 53, SS 31, L10 6, Rev 5)

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A quick look at Practiscore of this year's area matches (the ones I can find):

 

Area 4:
Prod - 87
CO - 71

 

Area 1:
Prod - 66
CO - 87

 

Area 6:
Prod - 64
CO - 61

 

Area 7:
Prod - 75
CO - 55
 

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14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

divisions tend to be regional to a certain extent, the 2019 A1 two weeks ago had 84 CO to 64 Prod a couple years ago in this area Production was the second largest division, this year it just beat out PCC for 4th (Lim 112, Open 110, CO 84, Prod 64, PCC 53, SS 31, L10 6, Rev 5)

 

I'm thinking CO's popularity in Area 1 might also be skewed by Sig Optics local location and a certain trainer who favors that division.

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This is becoming an optic-oriented game.  The combination of PCC and CO have provided easy entry points for people to shoot with dots instead of iron sights.  Dots make certain kinds of shooting much easier and lower stress for most shooters.  As more and more MD's and match customers alike are dot-users themselves, matches are skewing towards harder shot values and, to a lesser extent, more moving targets.  For most shooters, a match with lots of hard shots and moving targets is pretty miserable (or at least very stressful) to shoot with iron sights.  


There is now a feedback loop.  More dot-equipped shooters mean more stages designed to be fun to shoot with a dot (and iron sights can go cry in the safe area).  That means shooters get pushed to switch into optic-equipped guns/divisions.  

 

At least that's what I have seen happening near me.  I don't know whether that is a good or a bad thing, but that is my perception of the dynamic. 

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Definitely regional, around here co beats production.  But i think the main draw of co is that it is a low cost hi cap division.  People believe that you need a $2000+ limited gun to start being competitve in the other  high cap division,  but in CO you you can have a rig that most think is competitive for  less than $1200 or so for the whole rig, and sometimes way less. Sure peope spend more but the belief that you have to is not there. 

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Posted (edited)

CO is low cost, high-cap, gives you a dot, and lets you use factory 9mm.  That's attractive to a bunch of people.  Same with PCC, plus every shot is low-stress with a PCC.  And now enough people have been pulled in by those that matches are catering more to those shooters than to the iron-sight folks.  

Edited by ATLDave

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I think displaying the combined overall on Practiscore has also contributed a lot to the growth of CO and PCC.  If you can't win a Production match to save your life, just stick a dot on your gun, throw in some 140mm mages, and shoot CO.  Sure, you ain't gonna win CO either, but at least you'll feel better about yourself when you're having your wicked way with the lo-cap guys in the combined overall.

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Posted (edited)
  Prod CO
Area 1 66 87
Area 2 40 39
Area 3 76 62
Area 4 87 71
Area 5 87 44
Area 6 64 61
Area 7 75 55
Area 8 117 81

 

Added more area match data.  Looks like Area 1 is the only area match where CO outnumbered Prod. Area 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are very close in numbers.  Area 5 and 8 have Prod outnumber CO by a big margin. 

 

Time will tell.  Will be interesting to look at 2020 data.  CO is pretty much poor man's open right now:

  • Bigger mag capacity
  • Easier to hit stuff
  • Easier to plan stages
  • Minor ammo
  • Higher combined overall ranking

I personally think if we bring both divisions to 15-round cap, they will be pretty well balanced.  This is an area I believe IPSC did right. 

Edited by Dazhi

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5 minutes ago, Dazhi said:
  Prod CO
Area 1 66 87
Area 2 40 39
Area 3 76 62
Area 4 87 71
Area 5 44 87
Area 6 64 61
Area 7 75 55
Area 8 117 81

 

Added more area match data.  Looks like Area 1 is the only area match where CO outnumbered Prod. Area 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are very close in numbers.  Area 5 and 8 have Prod outnumber CO by a big margin. 

 

Time will tell.  Will be interesting to look at 2020 data.  CO is pretty much poor man's open right now:

  • Bigger mag capacity
  • Easier to hit stuff
  • Easier to plan stages
  • Minor ammo
  • Higher combined overall ranking

I personally think if we bring both divisions to 15-round cap, they will be pretty well balanced.  This is an area I believe IPSC did right. 

 

The real interesting part is that CO in its current form has only been around for what, 2 years?  

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6 hours ago, Dazhi said:
  Prod CO
Area 1 66 87
Area 2 40 39
Area 3 76 62
Area 4 87 71
Area 5 44 87
Area 6 64 61
Area 7 75 55
Area 8 117 81

 

Added more area match data.  Looks like Area 1 is the only area match where CO outnumbered Prod. Area 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are very close in numbers.  Area 5 and 8 have Prod outnumber CO by a big margin. 

 

Time will tell.  Will be interesting to look at 2020 data.  CO is pretty much poor man's open right now:

  • Bigger mag capacity
  • Easier to hit stuff
  • Easier to plan stages
  • Minor ammo
  • Higher combined overall ranking

I personally think if we bring both divisions to 15-round cap, they will be pretty well balanced.  This is an area I believe IPSC did right. 

 

I agree with you and IPSC on the 15 round capacity limit for both Prod and CO. 

 

Looks like you have the numbers reversed for Area 5.

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On 7/3/2019 at 11:20 AM, ATLDave said:

 As more and more MD's and match customers alike are dot-users themselves, matches are skewing towards harder shot values and, to a lesser extent, more moving targets. 

 

Have not seen this happen where I shoot.

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1 hour ago, elguapo said:

Looks like you have the numbers reversed for Area 5.

Corrected.  Thanks for pointing out. 

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Posted (edited)

Most matches in my area are set up by open Div guys so no change here, what did and still does happen is it unfairly affected the Classic major guys here in australia as we are limited to 10 round maximum and only IPSC is approved the match designers have forgotten about the 8 round major and a few major shooters have jumped out.

 

Edited by terrydoc

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Posted (edited)

In June, Carry Optics overtook Open and is now third division by popularity, behind Limited and Production.

 

monthly_attendance.png

Edited by lstange
open, not prod

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Just my opinion, I think CO would be even larger if pcc wasn’t brought out 6 months after CO. But it will over take all division I think in a few yrs

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On 7/3/2019 at 11:20 AM, ATLDave said:

 For most shooters that suck, a match with lots of hard shots and moving targets is pretty miserable (or at least very stressful) to shoot with iron sights.

 

Fixed it for you

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1 hour ago, elguapo said:

 

Fixed it for you

 

Except there are a small number of sucky shooters who love lots of hard shots in a match.  That's why I said "most shooters that suck."  There are exceptions.  

 

There are also people who like distance running.  Some people just like suffering.  

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Matches around here have definitely increased in difficulty due to the popularity of PPC and CO.  I don't mind being a limited shooter, but the production division, which used to be the most popular by far is dying quickly.

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On 7/4/2019 at 8:53 AM, Dazhi said:
  Prod CO
Area 1 66 87
Area 2 40 39
Area 3 76 62
Area 4 87 71
Area 5 87 44
Area 6 64 61
Area 7 75 55
Area 8 117 81

 

Added more area match data.  Looks like Area 1 is the only area match where CO outnumbered Prod. Area 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are very close in numbers.  Area 5 and 8 have Prod outnumber CO by a big margin. 

 

Time will tell.  Will be interesting to look at 2020 data.  CO is pretty much poor man's open right now:

  • Bigger mag capacity
  • Easier to hit stuff
  • Easier to plan stages
  • Minor ammo
  • Higher combined overall ranking

I personally think if we bring both divisions to 15-round cap, they will be pretty well balanced.  This is an area I believe IPSC did right. 

 

Not too surprising to see a big margin for Prod in Area 8; both NJ and Maryland have 10 round mag restrictions. Area 7 is also fairly heavily shifted towards Prod, again not too surprising because NY, CT, MA, and VT all have capacity restrictions. Top three Prod:CO ratios are Area 5, Area 8, and Area 7 (1.98, 1.44, and 1.36:1 respectively); I'm more curious what's going on in Area 5! 

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15 minutes ago, regor said:

I'm more curious what's going on in Area 5! 

 

Nothing special.  None of our states have mag capacity restrictions.

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14 hours ago, lstange said:

In June, Carry Optics overtook Open and is now third division by popularity, behind Limited and Production.

 

monthly_attendance.png

 

Doesn't that chart simply show that match attendance is lower during the winter? 

 

(Prod 1600-3250 , CO 1500-3050, Limited 3200-5700, etc. , numbers not exact but best guess from eyeballing) 

 

Not to say what other data over a longer time period might be.  

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