2011 Recoil Analysis (Steel vs Plastic Grip)

[Frieday]

 

Late last year, I put a PT EVO grip on my Millennium Custom 2011.

I had been primarily shooting SNS 200gr's with WST.  This year I started shooting SNS 180gr's with n320.  

I started noticing the faster I was shooting, the higher my follow up shots were on targets.  And If I was engaging a few targets that were relatively close, the last targets I engaged had high hits on target.

This happened enough that I started to suspect I needed to make a change to my setup.  So I did trials with different recoil springs with the steel grip, and then again with the plastic grip.

All shots are with the same load and with the same 2011.  I did trials with 16, 15, 14, 12.5, 11 and 10lb springs with the steel grip, and then again with the plastic grip.  I did some slow fire and then rapid fire.

This video is a summary of my results.

Video Link

The results are surprising and I thought others would be interested to see them.

[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, Frieday said:

 

The results are surprising and I thought others would be interested to see them.

 

Thanks for posting - looks like a lot of work - nice of you to share it with us .  

 

I watched all five minutes, and not sure what "the results" were.

 

What conclusions have YOU reached after doing all this experimentation ?

 

Steel or plastic ?

 

10 lb or 16 lb ?

[TONY BARONE]

Looks like for you the steel grip has more bounce going into battery.

 

[Postal Bob]

What I saw in the videos, is that the steel grip and plastic grip, have different profiles. If the grips used are the ones in the pic of your first post, you can see the plastic grip is slimmer. Therefore, your hand fits one better than the other, causing you to shoot one better than the other. Even if the grips in the pic aren't what you used,in the video It looks like your hand sits slightly higher on the gun with the plastic grip, putting it closer to the bore axis. Meaning better recoil control.

Also, when shooting faster, and getting higher 2nd shots, it means the gun hasn't come down level before you fire the 2nd shot. Meaning you need a heavier recoil spring to bring it down faster.

But, you need to shoot at the speed you normally shoot at, before trying to figure what spring works best for you, A slower shooter will use a different spring, than a faster shooter may use in the same gun. Adjust the gun to your style of shooting. Don't adjust your style to fit the gun.

[Furrly]

Your Grip needs work, once you get that figuered out then you work on which spring works best for your shooting style...

[Exlonghorn]

The thing that stood out to me is that you trigger slap a bit more with the steel grip, and the trigger slap gets progressively more pronounced during each string, but it's not consistent. 

 

Wow, you learn a lot with the slo-mo.  I"m going to have to try this (worried how bad mine will look, but committed to the scientific method).  thanks for sharing and giving everyone a chance to learn.

[DKorn]

It’s worth remembering that the “best” setup for a given shooter isn’t necessarily the one with the least muzzle flip or the least felt recoil, but the one that allows you to shoot the fastest while maintaining accuracy. In some cases, a “snappier” setup that returns more quickly might be better. Or, in the case of an open gun, if the comp is working too well you might have no upward movement, but also end up with unpredictable and erratic dot movement. 

 

OP, what felt and worked the best for you?

[muncie21]

Interesting experiment, so thanks OP for taking the time to document it and share it with us. 

 

I wonder how much of the difference we are seeing in recoil based on grip, is from the familiarity with a specific grip. Meaning if you had practiced with 1 grip for, let's say 6 months, filmed your experiment and then practiced with the other for 6 months and filmed, would we see different results?  I doubt anyone has the time or inclination to perform this type of research, so it's more theoretical/hypothesis than anything else.

[CHA-LEE]

The Plastic vs Steel grip examples in the video are not a surprise to me. The steel grip always has more muzzle bounce after the slide snaps forward because there is more mass getting rotated forward. If your grip pressure and angles allow the gun to muzzle flip up, then all of that weight has to flip back down. The bulk of the muzzle flip in both grip scenarios is likely due to using a Thumb Rest which puts your support hand wrist in more of a straight position instead of canted forward. If your support hand wrist is "straight" then it will act as a hinge during the muzzle flip process which promotes muzzle flip. Take the thumb rest off and grip the gun with a proper canted forward wrist so it can't act as a hinge.

[Frieday]

7 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

What I saw in the videos, is that the steel grip and plastic grip, have different profiles. If the grips used are the ones in the pic of your first post, you can see the plastic grip is slimmer. Therefore, your hand fits one better than the other, causing you to shoot one better than the other. Even if the grips in the pic aren't what you used,in the video It looks like your hand sits slightly higher on the gun with the plastic grip, putting it closer to the bore axis. Meaning better recoil control.

Also, when shooting faster, and getting higher 2nd shots, it means the gun hasn't come down level before you fire the 2nd shot. Meaning you need a heavier recoil spring to bring it down faster.

But, you need to shoot at the speed you normally shoot at, before trying to figure what spring works best for you, A slower shooter will use a different spring, than a faster shooter may use in the same gun. Adjust the gun to your style of shooting. Don't adjust your style to fit the gun.

 

 

I appreciate all the feedback guys.

 

Bob,  I hear what your saying about the high hits.  I was thinking something similar but I was on the fence.  I wasn't sure if I was actually firing the 2nd shot after the muzzle has dipped down and then gone up too far.

 

A couple things to note:

1- I did these trials across two days.  Day 1 with the steel grip ,and day 2 with the plastic grip.  An argument could be made that i didn't grip the gun consistently between the days.

2- I do not have the best grip or trigger control by any means.  My goal for these videos was to pull the trigger as fast as I could.  Not sure trigger slap has any effect on these tests.

3- I understand that muzzle flip and recoil are not everything when it comes to best performance.  But I was only trying to find the right combination of recoil spring/grip that would yield the least bounce after firing a shot.

 

All that being said, I found that shots fired with the plastic grip, with all of the recoil springs, to be much less bouncy after recoil.  I didn't need to wait to watch the video to realize this.  It was very apparent while shooting.  For me I couldn't tell much difference between 14, 12.5 and 11lb springs.  

 

A theory I have is the added weight of the grip is just more mass to settle down after recoil.  Sure, it has more inertia and takes more force to move.  But, once it gets moving it takes more to get it to stop.

 

I like the suggestion to remove the thumb rest.  If I get some time I will perform these tests again with it removed.

 

Again, thank you guys for the feedback.

[Hi-Power Jack]

53 minutes ago, Frieday said:

 

 I found the plastic grip to be much less bouncy after recoil   -   I couldn't tell much difference between 14, 12.5 and 11lb springs.  

 

Interesting.   I would have guessed the heavy metal grip would be "softer" …   Guess not.    

[bwikel]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

The bulk of the muzzle flip in both grip scenarios is likely due to using a Thumb Rest which puts your support hand wrist in more of a straight position instead of canted forward. If your support hand wrist is "straight" then it will act as a hinge during the muzzle flip process which promotes muzzle flip. Take the thumb rest off and grip the gun with a proper canted forward wrist so it can't act as a hinge.

Would it matter if the wrist is straight or canted if the wrists were locked with tension? Wouldn't it be easier to keep the wrists locked in a neutral position versus in extension such as they would be canted forward? 

[dansedgli]

Patented opposable grip technology cannot be wrong.

[CHA-LEE]

You can’t “lock” your wrist when it’s straight. You can add tension to it to try to hold it in a locked position but that doesn’t work. If you cant your wrist forward until it’s at the end of the range of motion then it can be “locked”.

 

You can test this by holding a hammer at the end of the handle. Use a straight wrist with all the tension you can muster then push and pull the head of the hammer with your other hand to displace it. Then repeat the same test with a forward canted wrist. The canted wrist will produce way more resistance to displacing the hammer because your wrist is truly locked. 

[bwikel]

11 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

You can’t “lock” your wrist when it’s straight. You can add tension to it to try to hold it in a locked position but that doesn’t work. If you cant your wrist forward until it’s at the end of the range of motion then it can be “locked”.

 

You can test this by holding a hammer at the end of the handle. Use a straight wrist with all the tension you can muster then push and pull the head of the hammer with your other hand to displace it. Then repeat the same test with a forward canted wrist. The canted wrist will produce way more resistance to displacing the hammer because your wrist is truly locked. 

That makes sense, I'll test to confirm my results. 

[Wrist Shot]

First of all you have cinematography skills! If the splits were included it would be a perfect experiment.

What was the spring weight when you noticed your second shots were high? 

I liked 12lb best in the videos.

 

Your said second shots were high on close targets.

Two shots should mean two sight pics. On longer targets maybe you send the second one when you get the second pic.and get good hits. Close targets that are "imposable to miss" sometimes make me pull the trigger as fast as I can knowing that I can't miss. Amazingly enough the second shot sometimes goes before the gun settles and i see the pic. It would be high. Thats if its not a delta because my eyes and feet are already on the way to the next target.

 

Other thing is that anticipating the sight position and starting the pull as the sights are dropping into position is great as long as your eyes stay on that target. Knowing the cadence of your shooting targets at different distances is half the fun. 

 

I vote 12 lb spring and break the shots as fast as you see the sights on the target. 

[hdgun]

Any time a change is made ,ammo,springs weight ect:  the gun will react differently. You might be used to the way it was set up before, now you have to relearn. Timing is everything. You can not stop recoil. 

[CHA-LEE]

On 4/2/2019 at 8:55 PM, bwikel said:

That makes sense, I'll test to confirm my results. 

Well..... What did you find out in your testing?

[bwikel]

On 4/10/2019 at 6:01 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Well..... What did you find out in your testing?

Still evaluating in live fire. Locking the wrist seems to bring the sights back quicker but to much cant of the wrist pulls my palm off the back of the grip. Trying to find a happy medium with good results. 

[Frieday]

On 4/5/2019 at 7:56 PM, Wrist Shot said:

First of all you have cinematography skills! If the splits were included it would be a perfect experiment.

What was the spring weight when you noticed your second shots were high? 

I liked 12lb best in the videos.

 

Your said second shots were high on close targets.

Two shots should mean two sight pics. On longer targets maybe you send the second one when you get the second pic.and get good hits. Close targets that are "imposable to miss" sometimes make me pull the trigger as fast as I can knowing that I can't miss. Amazingly enough the second shot sometimes goes before the gun settles and i see the pic. It would be high. Thats if its not a delta because my eyes and feet are already on the way to the next target.

 

Other thing is that anticipating the sight position and starting the pull as the sights are dropping into position is great as long as your eyes stay on that target. Knowing the cadence of your shooting targets at different distances is half the fun. 

 

I vote 12 lb spring and break the shots as fast as you see the sights on the target. 

Thank you.  I owe it all to the iphone.

You bring up a very good point.  I think my lack of live fire practice contributes to firing at distant targets on a cadence, rather than a good 2nd sight picture.  Maybe I'm trying to tune the gun to my cadence, rather than learn the cadence of the gun, lol.

 

I took another look into the thumb rest and the shape of the PT EVO grip.  I had the thumb rest mounted pretty far back, on account of my hands being on the smaller side.  But I noticed that this also pushed the palm of my support hand back on the grip.  Enough that it prevented the palm of my strong hand from fully contacting the back of the grip.  So, the PT EVO grip's recessed beavertail created a gap between it and my strong hand.  I believe this could have had a large effect on the rocking motion I was experiencing with the metal grip.

 

I have moved the thumbrest one hole forward.  This allowed me to move my support hand more forward, lock my wrist down, and get better contact with my strong hand.  I do still have the plastic grip on the gun.  Both dry fire and live feel better with the thumbrest forward.  I plan to put the PT EVO grip back on and do some more tests.

[Descartian]

I’ve always heard that the transition of force is lessened when going through 2 different materials thus the design of the 2011 metal frame and plastic grip. When you use a metal grip you are in essence making it a monolithic frame and more recoil (force) will be felt. 

 

Im neither a GM or an engineer but that’s the word on the street. 

[yigal]

24 minutes ago, Descartian said:

I’ve always heard that the transition of force is lessened when going through 2 different materials thus the design of the 2011 metal frame and plastic grip. When you use a metal grip you are in essence making it a monolithic frame and more recoil (force) will be felt. 

 

Im neither a GM or an engineer but that’s the word on the street. 

one of the best shock  absorbers in mech. industry  made from plastic  i used it  from  late 80s  as shock buff for all my guns.