PCC started with safety off D/Q or not

[ChuckS]

It doesn't matter since Foley said we are dumping PCC as a division.

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

It doesn't matter since Foley said we are dumping PCC as a division.

God I wish this were not April Fools Day!

[bret]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

This is why arbitration exists... not saying it’s necessarily worth the money to go for it all the time, but when the rules clearly don’t support the call that was made (I’m assuming that the DQ was made under 10.5.11 or one of its sub-rules, and 10.5.11 specifically states a loaded firearm) it might make sense to go for it. 

I should have filed a 3rd party arbitration,  I would have won.

 

I make sure I have a couple of Hundo's on me now.

[StealthyBlagga]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Funny I just read it he highlighted text and flipping a safety lever off doesn’t come close to those parameters in my opinion. The text clearly states shooting position and posture. 

 

And that's the problem - the wording should be clear and not rely on the opinion of the RO.

 

My opinion: Posture = body position. The hand is part of the body. Clearly it is more advantageous for the safety to be off, and the hand is moving to achieve that ends. I get what you are saying - the rule was originally written to avoid the shooter moving his body, such as leaning into a movement or moving hand towards the handgun or similar false start moves, but flicking the safety off before the start signal does seem to fit the wording and the spirit (i.e. getting an unfair advantage via movement before the start signal).

 

If the BoD decided flicking the PCC safety off before the start signal is never subject to 10.2.6, an exclusionary clause or edit to the rules would be definitive and ensure everyone got equal treatment. But put it in the rules - not USPSA magazine or on Facebook.

 

As a practical matter, I'd rather ROs didn't have to call folks back or reshoot them unnecessarily - bad for match flow, bad for the shooter's focus. This is one of many rules that needs to be reviewed/updated to clarify how it applies to PCC.

Edited April 1, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[Sarge]

17 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

And that's the problem - the wording should be clear and not rely on the opinion of the RO.

 

My opinion: Posture = body position. The hand is part of the body. Clearly it is more advantageous for the safety to be off, and the hand is moving to achieve that ends. I get what you are saying - the rule was originally written to avoid the shooter moving his body, such as leaning into a movement or moving hand towards the handgun or similar false start moves, but flicking the safety off before the start signal does seem to fit the wording and the spirit (i.e. getting an unfair advantage via movement before the start signal).

 

If the BoD decided flicking the PCC safety off before the start signal is never subject to 10.2.6, an exclusionary clause or edit to the rules would be definitive and ensure everyone got equal treatment. But put it in the rules - not USPSA magazine or on Facebook.

 

As a practical matter, I'd rather ROs didn't have to call folks back or reshoot them unnecessarily - bad for match flow, bad for the shooter's focus. This is one of many rules that needs to be reviewed/updated to clarify how it applies to PCC.

agreed

[egd5]

Are there really people who think they are getting a real advantage by having the safety off before starting?  (with an ar style pcc that is) I mean, with your thumb resting on the safety it can be flicked off WHILE you're on the way up to your shoulder the instant you start to move the gun. What could be simpler?  Sheesh!!!

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, egd5 said:

Are there really people who think they are getting a real advantage by having the safety off before starting?  (with an ar style pcc that is) I mean, with your thumb resting on the safety it can be flicked off WHILE you're on the way up to your shoulder the instant you start to move the gun. What could be simpler?  Sheesh!!!

One scenario I can think of is laser on close target and shooting from the hip. Might save a fraction of a fraction of a second.

[egd5]

Yeah, fraction of a fraction is about right.

[gino_aki]

Troy sent back our stages for the State Match we have coming up noting I had to re-word all the WSB's (I'd submitted the stages before the 2019 Rules went into effect) to state that "safety applied" had to be added by rule, amongst other things.  I couldn't find the rule he meant either under 3.2 or 8.1.  I queried him after I made the changes about what rule he meant, seeing how "safety on" is the default ready condition for all single action firearms including PCC's.  My question concerned why it would be necessary to include such wording in a WSB for PCC's when it doesn't have to be for handguns.  The only reason I could parse out (since he didn't answer my question) was that it was a safety precaution since PCC is the only Division in handgun competition where the firearm starts in hand.  Not sure what this adds to the thread except that perhaps it bolsters the "false start" interpretation and not the DQ.

[NickBlasta]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

One scenario I can think of is laser on close target and shooting from the hip. Might save a fraction of a fraction of a second.

 

Picking a foot up an inch off the ground right before the start signal is not going to meaningfully benefit your run, but it is still creeping. Quantifying the benefit isn't really germane. The competitor is making some physical action that moves them out of the start position and towards shooting something.

[Smithcity]

Seems the RM / RO in this scenario is confusing holstered pistol unsafe start conditions (i.e. holstered with external safety on if it exists) with the PCC start condition. Perhaps if USPSA required PCC shooters to start with a "loaded and holstered PCC" then they should be DQ'd if the safety isn't on, rather, the PCC shooter starts with the muzzle pointed downrange in a safe direction, and safety should be on per the rule book. I believe the spirit behind activation of an external safety for holstered pistols is a matter of safety. The holstered position for a pistol might point at the shooters foot, leg, a few inches behind them which could be the RO, as a matter of safety the safety should be on! This isn't a problem for PCC since the muzzle is pointed down range. As such, DQ for a start position holding a PCC without a safety activated is no where in the rule book. Furthermore, if the shooter simply forgot to engage the safety, just as if they forgot to put their foot on an X, or get the stock on their belt, the RO needs to stop them and correct the start condition before proceeding. 

 

RM/RO's fault, maybe we should add a rule that the RM/RO is DQ'd for issuing DQ's that don't exist in the rule book! Wouldn't that be fun, if the RO can't show that the DQ is anywhere in the rule book, then if the RO shot the match they get a DQ themselves!