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a matt

Popper screwed and penalty a question

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I don't think I've ever stopped someone for a popper, but I've called a halt on a lot of shooters for plate failures.

No sense wasting ammo on a slam-dunk reshoot.

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16 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Seen way too many poppers not fall when used as activators. I know we have a popper calibration rule, but if I’m RO and I see a good hit and popper is at beginning of a stage run, I’m going to call STOP and check popper instead of having the shooter run the whole stage. I think that’s most equitable to the shooter and the rest of the competitors. 

 

Then you would be freaking wrong!! Cant make up rules

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It is a judgement call.  I have stopped or seen shooters stopped when a popper fails to fall activating a moving target.  In pretty much every case it was the beginning of the match and some issue with the setup prevented the popper from falling.  After an adjustment was made to the system so that the popper would activate reliably, the rest of the match went on without a problem.  The problem was not usually one of the popper failing to try and fall but more of an issue of the activating mechanism preventing the fall. 

 

If a popper was hit well and failed to fall it was either shot a second time and did fall or failed to fall and we stopped to check it out.  Again we are talking the early part of the match where set up issues might still need some correction.  

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3 hours ago, Poppa Bear said:

It is a judgement call.  I have stopped or seen shooters stopped when a popper fails to fall activating a moving target.  In pretty much every case it was the beginning of the match and some issue with the setup prevented the popper from falling.  After an adjustment was made to the system so that the popper would activate reliably, the rest of the match went on without a problem.  The problem was not usually one of the popper failing to try and fall but more of an issue of the activating mechanism preventing the fall. 

 

If a popper was hit well and failed to fall it was either shot a second time and did fall or failed to fall and we stopped to check it out.  Again we are talking the early part of the match where set up issues might still need some correction.  

Precisely one of the scenarios I was referring too. If you’re the first squad to shoot at a local match this happens more times than I can count so why not stop shooter and make sure activation is working correctly before you let shooter shot the whole stage and get a practice run. 

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10 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

Then you would be freaking wrong!! Cant make up rules

 

According to Hoyle you are right, and according to Murphy sometimes poppers can be a real pain in the arse and flat out mess things up for a lot of reasons (not set right initially, move in the mud, windy day, poorly designed, etc) . 

 

At a level 2 or above you've got to do things according to Hoyle, this is why a lot of folks are cautious about using more than a minimal number of poppers at bigger matches. At a level one I will try to make things the most fair for all shooters when we have flaky popper problems or flakey plate rack problems. 
 

 

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28 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Precisely one of the scenarios I was referring too. If you’re the first squad to shoot at a local match this happens more times than I can count so why not stop shooter and make sure activation is working correctly before you let shooter shot the whole stage and get a practice run. 

 

Why not make sure it’s working correctly before you start shooting? As the RO, you should be inspecting steel and activators before the squad starts shooting to prevent issues before they cause problems. 

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46 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Why not make sure it’s working correctly before you start shooting? As the RO, you should be inspecting steel and activators before the squad starts shooting to prevent issues before they cause problems. 

 

There you go adding reason to the debate.  Shame on you.

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1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

Why not make sure it’s working correctly before you start shooting? As the RO, you should be inspecting steel and activators before the squad starts shooting to prevent issues before they cause problems. 

 

Sounds great. Works most of the time. 

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2 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Why not make sure it’s working correctly before you start shooting? As the RO, you should be inspecting steel and activators before the squad starts shooting to prevent issues before they cause problems. 

I try my best to make the stages consistent and equitable for everyone. 

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Immediately call for a calibration after you finish the course of fire. 95% of the time you’ll lose, but it’s worth trying anyways especially if you have a solid hit on the steel. Don’t let them make you feel bad for holding up the flow, you paid to shoot, you expect to have proper range equipment


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On 3/29/2019 at 12:00 PM, Sarge said:

Because we have rules?

 

except when it comes to calibration ammo.........   😮

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3 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Precisely one of the scenarios I was referring too. If you’re the first squad to shoot at a local match this happens more times than I can count so why not stop shooter and make sure activation is working correctly before you let shooter shot the whole stage and get a practice run. 

 

I used to argue the exact same point you are arguing, and then I started checking the poppers before the squad shoots at locals... on every stage, but especially the first one.

 

Calling for calibration is a last resort, but we know it's not fair because some of the most hard-core rules fanatics have admitted in this very forum that they don't care about the popper calibration rules that protect the shooter (like the PF of the ammo).

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I used to argue the exact same point you are arguing, and then I started checking the poppers before the squad shoots at locals... on every stage, but especially the first one.
 
Calling for calibration is a last resort, but we know it's not fair because some of the most hard-core rules fanatics have admitted in this very forum that they don't care about the popper calibration rules that protect the shooter (like the PF of the ammo).


That and the fact that some RO’s “calibrate” as high on the steel as possible, not the “scoring circle “ where they are supposed to hit during a challenge


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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

except when it comes to calibration ammo.........   😮

Sure, if it makes you feel better....

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4 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Precisely one of the scenarios I was referring too. If you’re the first squad to shoot at a local match this happens more times than I can count so why not stop shooter and make sure activation is working correctly before you let shooter shot the whole stage and get a practice run. 

Seems like you keep moving the goal post away from your OP. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theblacklabel18 said:

 


That and the fact that some RO’s “calibrate” as high on the steel as possible, not the “scoring circle “ where they are supposed to hit during a challenge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

If the RO hits above the calibration zone during the challenge, then it’s an automatic reshoot. If you have ROs that aren’t following this I suggest that someone needs to review the relevant Appendix with them. 

Edited by DKorn
Typo

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Why can't USPSA HQ just change the rule so that an evidently hit popper (in the calibration zone) that doesn't fall = an automatic reshoot ?

 

We have been talking people getting "popper screwed" since at least 2007 or 2008?

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You could petition your Area Director to raise that at the next board meeting.

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11 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Why can't USPSA HQ just change the rule so that an evidently hit popper (in the calibration zone) that doesn't fall = an automatic reshoot ?

 

We have been talking people getting "popper screwed" since at least 2007 or 2008?

Well a few things come to mind. At Level I matches(99+% of all matches)painting is not required after each shooter. That would need changed in the rules. Also, it opens the door to cheating by running ammo that does not meet PF requirements. Lastly getting popper boned is not nearly as common as some would lead us to believe. Sure, it has happened and if you were the victim then it must suck. You probably think it needs to change. But in 10 years I have personally never had it happen to me nor have I witnessed it from the local level up to Level III. 

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11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Well a few things come to mind. At Level I matches(99+% of all matches)painting is not required after each shooter. That would need changed in the rules. Also, it opens the door to cheating by running ammo that does not meet PF requirements. Lastly getting popper boned is not nearly as common as some would lead us to believe. Sure, it has happened and if you were the victim then it must suck. You probably think it needs to change. But in 10 years I have personally never had it happen to me nor have I witnessed it from the local level up to Level III. 

How does it open the door to cheating? The shooter hits the popper in the calibration zone, it doesn't fall, reshoot. Shooter hits the popper in the calibration zone again on the next run, it doesn't fall, reshoot. How many times are you gonna let a shooter reshoot for the same thing before thinking his ammo is suspect? One time is an anomaly, twice is suspect. 

 

If anything, it would out all the cheaters or would be cheaters. Besides, who starts a run thinking that they want a reshoot before they fire the first shot?

 

Yes, I have had issues with poppers before, and had several reshoots because of it. Every time it was because of an improperly set popper. The only time that I got a reshoot without having the RM shoot the popper, someone walked up to it and hit it with their fist to see if it would fall...it didn't.

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If the RO hits above the calibration zone during the challenge, then it’s an automatic reshoot. If you have ROs that aren’t following this I suggest that someone needs to review the relevant Appendix with them. 


Yes we’ve had this discussion a few times with RO’s I was not familiar with over the years. They were all good about it and gave reshoots with the support of the MD


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I lost a calibration call at the Minnesota Sectional last year, my ammo made 134 PF at chrony so not shooting near the limit.  Next shooter is a Major shooter and popper barely falls, after he is done they determine they need to adjust the popper, that one left a sour taste in my mouth.

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1 hour ago, Chili said:

I lost a calibration call at the Minnesota Sectional last year, my ammo made 134 PF at chrony so not shooting near the limit.  Next shooter is a Major shooter and popper barely falls, after he is done they determine they need to adjust the popper, that one left a sour taste in my mouth.

Crew should have been watching how poppers were acting. But for some reason you lost a calibration call with steel set that heavy? 

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Crew should have been watching how poppers were acting. But for some reason you lost a calibration call with steel set that heavy? 

When does this ever take place before an issue?   Lol 

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8 minutes ago, a matt said:

When does this ever take place before an issue?   Lol 

Plenty but maybe not enough? I generally check poppers on my stage during lunch or during long gaps between squads at a minimum. If we want to maintain equity poppers that are activators should be kept adjusted so they always work at the same speed.

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