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CHA-LEE

Pointing out a gun issue while ROing turns into a DQ situation

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Here is the basic situation. I RO a shooter through a stage run, they safely complete the course of fire, but I notice something is falling apart of their gun during their run. I point out the gun failure and the shooter ends up doing something stupid like sweeping themselves or drawing the gun again after the range is clear to look at the issue which results in a DQ. Over the years these unfortunate DQ’s have happened twice while I was running shooters as the Timer RO. Both times resulted in justified DQ’s for unsafe gun handling or sweeping, but I still felt like the DQ was my fault because I pointed out the failure on their gun which in turn triggered the shooter to perform the unsafe action.

 

I am not sure if the exact gun failure matters or not, but in both of these cases the failure was the Fiber Rod in their front sight was loose and flopping around or it had completely come out during their run. In one instance I gave the shooter the “If you are finished, unload and show clear”. Then before the “If clear, hammer down holster” command I told them “Your front sight fiber is coming out” and they proceeded to place their hand in front of the muzzle while touching on the front sight which is sweeping DQ. The second instance I noticed that the fiber had come all the way out and I issued all of the range commands ending with “Range Is Clear” then as we were walking towards the targets to score them I told the shooter to go to the safe area and check their front sight fiber and the shooter instantly draws the gun to look at the front sight which is unsafe gun handling DQ after the range is clear.

 

I know that the DQ’s were 100% supported by the rules so that isn’t in question here. My question is if I should refrain from pointing out obvious gun failures that I see while ROing shooters? Or continue to point out obvious gun failures with the potential of triggering shooters to unintentionally perform an unsafe action that results in a DQ? Personally I would appreciate if an RO pointed out a gun issue I may have not noticed as I know I can refrain from doing something stupid that would get me DQed after hearing that feedback. But I also understand that right after a stage run shooters are usually super excited or distracted by their run and can revert to doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.   

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I have no problem with informing a shooter about a part failure. I would have refrained from stating until you had completely finished the proper range commands and made the range safe.
Anything the shooter does after that is 100% on them. They draw their weapon or sweep themselves then they have to face the consequences of improper actions.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

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Posted (edited)

I think i would have waited till the gun was holstered and then told them to take it to a safe area and look at it.  I know it is on the shooter, but with the safety rules we have (they are good ones) and the repercussions for breaking them, i don't want to distract a shooter, especially when they are amped up after a run.  It seems to be a formula for bad stuff to happen

 

Edit for the second shooter was an idiot, i see no fault in what you did in that situation

Edited by RJH

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Its on them, but I think I would have waited until they were completely done and scored and told them to go to the safe table.

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2 hours ago, mstamper said:

I have no problem with informing a shooter about a part failure. I would have refrained from stating until you had completely finished the proper range commands and made the range safe.
Anything the shooter does after that is 100% on them. They draw their weapon or sweep themselves then they have to face the consequences of improper actions.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
 

This,,  follow proper procedures... That is why we have them. To have an exact time when the COF starts and ends. After the end its on them

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I always ask people if I can check out their gun at the safe table then tell them. Most clubs don’t have safe tables at every bay like we do though

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3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

The second instance I noticed that the fiber had come all the way out and I issued all of the range commands ending with “Range Is Clear” then as we were walking towards the targets to score them I told the shooter to go to the safe area and check their front sight fiber and the shooter instantly draws the gun to look at the front sight which is unsafe gun handling DQ after the range is clear.

  

i guess i'm not the only one that doesn't look at their front site...  but that (whipping out their pistol while walking to score targets) is messed up and certainly not on you by any stretch.

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The first incident was premature in my opinion.  Waiting until RIC before telling them about the problem does not interfere with the COF.  The second one is 100% stupid on the part of the shooter.  You are not at fault for either situation and they deserve the DQ.  I do not care how amped up you get during a COF there is no excuse for violating either of the safety rules involved. 

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Only thing I would add is perhaps telling the shooter, “go to the safe area and look at you broken part” jut to give them the right idea. 

 

But really, all safety rules are on the shooter. 

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12 hours ago, RJH said:

I would have waited till the gun was holstered and then told them to take it to a safe area and look at it. 

 

:cheers:

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Sounds to me like you were just trying to be helpful. We have a tendency to remember bad things and forget the good. You listed two examples resulting in DQ's, both of which were directly the fault of the shooter. I imagine over the years there have been many times when you advised a shooter after a COF that did not result in a DQ. 

 

Regarding the first situation, probably would have been better to get it in the holster and clear range then tell the shooter. Still no excuse for sweeping your hand. 

 

Personally if I had a similar issue I would appreciate the RO bringing it to my attention immediately after RIC and before scoring targets. Safety is still on the shooter. 

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CHA-LEE

 

You didn't tell the shooters to do anything.  If someone were going to sweep themselves because they are told their front fiber is breaking, they'd do it regardless of whether the RO is the person telling them or not.  If someone is going to whip out their gun when someone tells them their gun is broken, they'll do it regardless of whether it's the RO or not.  These were impulsive reactions to information, not obedience to commands.

 

Let me ask you this: Were you surprised when the shooters did what they did?  I bet you were, because neither of those actions was a reasonably forseeable reaction to being told "I think your front sight fiber is broken."  I would concur with your view that it is better to get through the "range is clear" stage before providing information, but certainly after that point (and even before), those reactions belong to the shooter and the shooter alone.  

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I don’t see anything wrong with either. But I can see why so many ro like robots too

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I’d say during the course of fire (between “make ready” and “range is clear”), stick as much as possible to the official range commands unless it is absolutely necessary to say something else. Actually, I’d start that slightly before the make ready command, just to avoid the awkward situation of someone hearing you say something and thinking it’s “make ready” when it was actually something else.

 

So, in your first scenario, I would’ve waited until after the gun was holstered and the range was clear to tell them. Other than that, I wouldn’t have done anything differently from what you did.

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16 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here is the basic situation. I RO a shooter through a stage run, they safely complete the course of fire, but I notice something is falling apart of their gun during their run. I point out the gun failure and the shooter ends up doing something stupid like sweeping themselves or drawing the gun again after the range is clear to look at the issue which results in a DQ. Over the years these unfortunate DQ’s have happened twice while I was running shooters as the Timer RO. Both times resulted in justified DQ’s for unsafe gun handling or sweeping, but I still felt like the DQ was my fault because I pointed out the failure on their gun which in turn triggered the shooter to perform the unsafe action.

 

I am not sure if the exact gun failure matters or not, but in both of these cases the failure was the Fiber Rod in their front sight was loose and flopping around or it had completely come out during their run. In one instance I gave the shooter the “If you are finished, unload and show clear”. Then before the “If clear, hammer down holster” command I told them “Your front sight fiber is coming out” and they proceeded to place their hand in front of the muzzle while touching on the front sight which is sweeping DQ. The second instance I noticed that the fiber had come all the way out and I issued all of the range commands ending with “Range Is Clear” then as we were walking towards the targets to score them I told the shooter to go to the safe area and check their front sight fiber and the shooter instantly draws the gun to look at the front sight which is unsafe gun handling DQ after the range is clear.

 

I know that the DQ’s were 100% supported by the rules so that isn’t in question here. My question is if I should refrain from pointing out obvious gun failures that I see while ROing shooters? Or continue to point out obvious gun failures with the potential of triggering shooters to unintentionally perform an unsafe action that results in a DQ? Personally I would appreciate if an RO pointed out a gun issue I may have not noticed as I know I can refrain from doing something stupid that would get me DQed after hearing that feedback. But I also understand that right after a stage run shooters are usually super excited or distracted by their run and can revert to doing something stupid in the heat of the moment.   

 

Simple. Finish the task at hand and then worry about it afterwards.

 

ULSC as usual. Range is safe. Give time to the scorekeeper. All as normal.

 

THEN, tell the shooter about the problem, and ADVISE them to check it out later AT THE SAFE TABLE.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

But I can see why so many ro like robots too

 

Because they do work? 

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same thing happened here a month or so ago, and resulted in some discussion how to handle it. consensus was to say something like 'hey, you might go to the safe table and check out your gun, i noticed xxx with it while you were shooting.'

 

Even just waiting until the shooter has stepped away from the line to mention anything would probably help. There's a bit of a mental dividing line between standing there handling your gun under RO supervision, and walking around looking at targets, etc...

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We had a similar thing happen this past week at our local match. Two shooters needed to shoot though because they had to leave early. The first shooter walked up the line and started asking questions about the course, how many rounds, start position etc. The ro who was new was in the process of telling him to go read the wsb and the guy pulled his gun out of his holster. At no time was the guy given the make ready command.

The next shooter who was reading the wsb started asking what just happened and the ro started asking him does the shooter understand the course of fire. 

 

I talked to the ro after he was finished and suggested not to engage with small talk before starting a shooter. If there’s a situation like that again tell him to read the wsb and call the next shooter up on deck. That leaves little to room for someone to do something stupid. 

 

Yes the shooter who got dq’d was anxious to get started but wasn’t paying attention to what the ro was saying and he ended up going home. This immediately got his buddies attention and he had no issue understanding what he was supposed to do and not do. 

 

The shooter that got dq’d went and complained to our rm that the ro didn’t used the proper range commands when he asked the ro about the course of fire. 

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9 minutes ago, Corrado_kid said:

We had a similar thing happen this past week at our local match. Two shooters needed to shoot though because they had to leave early. The first shooter walked up the line and started asking questions about the course, how many rounds, start position etc. The ro who was new was in the process of telling him to go read the wsb and the guy pulled his gun out of his holster. At no time was the guy given the make ready command.

The next shooter who was reading the wsb started asking what just happened and the ro started asking him does the shooter understand the course of fire. 

 

I talked to the ro after he was finished and suggested not to engage with small talk before starting a shooter. If there’s a situation like that again tell him to read the wsb and call the next shooter up on deck. That leaves little to room for someone to do something stupid. 

 

Yes the shooter who got dq’d was anxious to get started but wasn’t paying attention to what the ro was saying and he ended up going home. This immediately got his buddies attention and he had no issue understanding what he was supposed to do and not do. 

 

The shooter that got dq’d went and complained to our rm that the ro didn’t used the proper range commands when he asked the ro about the course of fire. 

 

Sounds like the one guy wasn't real bright haha. When shooting, i many times have asked the ro something or another,  and  when we are done discussing it and  he gives me the make ready command,  i  ask if he gave the make ready to be double sure.  As shooters we need to remember that we are only on the clock from beep to the last shot, and slow down the rest of the time. Some people just don't  seem to get it though 

 

 

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I feel your confusion/concerns.  I'd say not your fault.  But when engaging with the RO I can see how a competitor would still be in the mindset of being under the RO's control.

The only solution to give you peace of mind would be to tell the competitor to "take their firearm to the Safety Area as I think you have xxxx issue" while you still have a little control as in before the all clear or after they have walked away then approach them and make the suggestion..  Then they are more likely to take that as a command to do something, or a friend making a suggestion,, and won't be tempted to just react.  It's still on them though.

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In the first scenario you should not have said anything but the range commands, after the range is clear is the time to give them a heads up on their fiber or other issue.

 

Since you didn't use the proper range commands,  the RM may have reversed the DQ, although I think the guy is a dumbass and should be DQd.

 

Second case,  simple,  DQ the idiot. 

 

I think pointing out gun problems is a good idea before or after the course of fire and in the second case you even told him to go to the safe area.

 

Some people are just stupid. 

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Just to be clear, after the first situation where I interjected my broken front sight fiber findings in the middle of the range commands, I have since stopped doing that all together. Now I only say the official range commands until the final "Range is Clear" then I will mention whatever else is needed. I know that interjecting anything other than official range commands in the middle of the run isn't the way it should be done. I guess I should have made that more clear.

 

My conundrum with this being a prick and not pointing out obvious gun issues after the range is clear, but then don't risk someone doing something stupid to DQ themselves. Or continue to point out obvious gun issues after the range is clear and just accept the fact that some people simply can't refrain from doing something stupid which would result in a DQ.

 

I don't want to be a prick and not say anything, but I also don't want to be an enabler when it comes to people potentially doing stupid stuff that could ultimately get them DQed.

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27 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Just to be clear, after the first situation where I interjected my broken front sight fiber findings in the middle of the range commands, I have since stopped doing that all together. Now I only say the official range commands until the final "Range is Clear" then I will mention whatever else is needed. I know that interjecting anything other than official range commands in the middle of the run isn't the way it should be done. I guess I should have made that more clear.

 

My conundrum with this being a prick and not pointing out obvious gun issues after the range is clear, but then don't risk someone doing something stupid to DQ themselves. Or continue to point out obvious gun issues after the range is clear and just accept the fact that some people simply can't refrain from doing something stupid which would result in a DQ.

 

I don't want to be a prick and not say anything, but I also don't want to be an enabler when it comes to people potentially doing stupid stuff that could ultimately get them DQed.

 

First, I think it’s important to recognize that we can’t fix stupid. If someone is going to do something to get themselves DQ’d, unless we’re doing something that obviously leads them to do it when they otherwise wouldn’t, it isn’t our fault as ROs or other competitors. 

 

That said, I think how we phrase it might have an effect on their reaction:

”Hey, your front fiber is falling out!”

vs

”By the way, after we score the targets, you might want to go to the safe area and take a look at your front sight. I think you fiber might be falling out.”

 

I also think tone has an effect as well. Slowing and quieting your speech is probably less likely to get a knee-jerk stupid reaction. 

 

I’ll probably still point stuff like this out to my fellow competitors, but now that you’ve brought up the potential issue I’ll probably be more careful in how I do it. 

 

 

The other thing i’m wondering about this- if this were a major match and you were the RO on the stage, could pointing something like this out be a potential competitive equity issue? And if so, at what point does it become an issue?

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18 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

First, I think it’s important to recognize that we can’t fix stupid. If someone is going to do something to get themselves DQ’d, unless we’re doing something that obviously leads them to do it when they otherwise wouldn’t, it isn’t our fault as ROs or other competitors. 

 

That said, I think how we phrase it might have an effect on their reaction:

”Hey, your front fiber is falling out!”

vs

”By the way, after we score the targets, you might want to go to the safe area and take a look at your front sight. I think you fiber might be falling out.”

 

I also think tone has an effect as well. Slowing and quieting your speech is probably less likely to get a knee-jerk stupid reaction. 

 

I’ll probably still point stuff like this out to my fellow competitors, but now that you’ve brought up the potential issue I’ll probably be more careful in how I do it. 

 

 

The other thing i’m wondering about this- if this were a major match and you were the RO on the stage, could pointing something like this out be a potential competitive equity issue? And if so, at what point does it become an issue?

At a major you can point stuff like that out as long as it’s outside the course of fire. I have heard many a RM, CRO, RO point something out when sitting in their cart talking to shooters.

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8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

At a major you can point stuff like that out as long as it’s outside the course of fire. I have heard many a RM, CRO, RO point something out when sitting in their cart talking to shooters.

 

That’s what I figured, but I didn’t want to step on anyone’s toes. I figure as long as it doesn’t specifically give them an advantage or disadvantage on a stage, pretty much anything within reason is fair game when BSing with the shooters outside of the course of fire. 

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