metal no-shoots, what does 'general size and shape' mean?

[motosapiens]

4.1.3     ... Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized cardboard targets may be used.

 

How general is general? To me a large rectangular steel challenge plate is the 'general size and shape' of an authorized cardboard target, but yesterday some experienced folks came down on both sides of the debate. It was finally allowed because one of the folks who went to the last nationals said there were steel challenge plates there used as no-shoots.  (fwiw, we painted them their normal white, with a black x, to make them 'clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets')

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

4.1.3     ... Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized cardboard targets may be used.

 

How general is general? To me a large rectangular steel challenge plate is the 'general size and shape' of an authorized cardboard target, but yesterday some experienced folks came down on both sides of the debate. It was finally allowed because one of the folks who went to the last nationals said there were steel challenge plates there used as no-shoots.  (fwiw, we painted them their normal white, with a black x, to make them 'clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets')

that is one of the Grey areas, if I were the RM I would probably say no its not generally the same shape 4 sides is not generally the same as 8(IPSC) or 12(USPSA) but being a grey area it would be up to the RM to decide. 

 

On a side note, at nationals (Factory gun and Limited) the steel no shoots were IPSC target (turtles)  size and shape not steel challenge rectangles

[motosapiens]

lol, so by 'general', you mean 'exact' ? i would say the uspsa target is generally rectangular.

Edited March 18, 2019 by motosapiens

[Kraj]

Area 5 a couple years ago had steel rectangle no shoots. No one complained that I heard and it worked fine. As long as it says in the WSB I don't see what the problem is

[motosapiens]

I emailed troy, and he agrees with mike, that 'general', actually means 'exact'. Glad that is settled. I will talk to our discipline director about getting a couple of steel targets that are exactly the general size and shape of a uspsa or ipsc target.

 

A steel challenge plate is not in the general size and shape of a USPSA or IPSC target, and it not an acceptable no-shoot target.  Steel targets that are used as no-shoots can be painted white with a black x to indicate they are no-shoots, or simply painted white, like a paper no-shoot, since we have no scoring steel targets shaped like cardboard targets.

[MikeBurgess]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I emailed troy, and he agrees with mike, that 'general', actually means 'exact'. Glad that is settled. I will talk to our discipline director about getting a couple of steel targets that are exactly the general size and shape of a uspsa or ipsc target.

 

A steel challenge plate is not in the general size and shape of a USPSA or IPSC target, and it not an acceptable no-shoot target.  Steel targets that are used as no-shoots can be painted white with a black x to indicate they are no-shoots, or simply painted white, like a paper no-shoot, since we have no scoring steel targets shaped like cardboard targets.

exact is too strong a description, i would say it it looks like its the right size and shape its good to go if you take out a tape measure and it turns out its 3/4" too small its still good to go, however a BC steel is probably not, while it is sort of the same shape its obviously not the same size or proportions.

 

I believe the rule was written that way to keep someone from challenging a stage because their micrometer says the steel is illegal

Edited March 18, 2019 by MikeBurgess
spelling

[BZ919]

This was talked about briefly at the RO certification class I took last weekend, taught by an NROI instructor.  From what I remember, "general shape" was interpreted as the same shape, but without the need for a non-shooting border, since steel has a pretty well-defined edge to it already

[bret]

54 minutes ago, BZ919 said:

This was talked about briefly at the RO certification class I took last weekend, taught by an NROI instructor.  From what I remember, "general shape" was interpreted as the same shape, but without the need for a non-shooting border, since steel has a pretty well-defined edge to it already

What is general shape? 

 

With head or without? 

 

In many matches I have seen the heads cut off of a Metric.

 

The rules say general size and shape it is not the same as exact.

 

What kind of chicken s#!t shooter is complaining about a metal no shoot?

 

As long as it is properly marked, don't shoot it and don't worry about it.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, bret said:

What is general shape? 

 

With head or without? 

 

In many matches I have seen the heads cut off of a Metric.

 

The rules say general size and shape it is not the same as exact.

 

What kind of chicken s#!t shooter is complaining about a metal no shoot?

 

As long as it is properly marked, don't shoot it and don't worry about it.

Cutting a head off is altering a standard scoring target. Rules say steel noshoot needs to look like an unaltered target. So general shape means , head and angles to look just like a USPSA target. Or an IPSC target. 

 A shooter who complains about illegal stuff at a match is not a chicken s#!t. He’s actually trying to maintain the integrity of the game.

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Rules say steel noshoot needs to look like an unaltered target.

 

I didn't see the word 'unaltered' in the rulebook. Did I accidentally look at an old version or something?

 

 I get that some people think 'general' means 'just like', but that's not what it means in english.

 

Of course, in english, one foot in and one foot out is not the same as  'out', but we have agreed to use some other language there, too.

Edited March 18, 2019 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I didn't see the word 'unaltered' in the rulebook. Did I accidentally look at an old version or something?

 

 I get that some people think 'general' means 'just like', but that's not what it means in english.

 

Of course, in english, one foot in and one foot out is not the same as  'out', but we have agreed to use some other language there, too.

No it doesn’t say unaltered but I’ll bet money you know when it says general shape of an authorized target it means a full unaltered target.

There are several ways to alter the shape of a scoring target with hard cover, no shooters etc. There is no way the rule means you can have any shape steel no shoot you feel like creating.

  Besides DNROI has correctly clarified it so it matters little what we think

[RJH]

4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

exact is too strong a description, i would say it it looks like its the right size and shape its good to go if you take out a tape measure and it turns out its 3/4" too small its still good to go, however a BC steel is probably not, while it is sort of the same shape its obviously not the same size or proportions.

 

I believe the rule was written that way to keep someone from challenging a stage because their micrometer says the steel is illegal

 

This is the way i seem to remember it being taught at my RO class

[bret]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Cutting a head off is altering a standard scoring target. Rules say steel noshoot needs to look like an unaltered target. So general shape means , head and angles to look just like a USPSA target. Or an IPSC target. 

 A shooter who complains about illegal stuff at a match is not a chicken s#!t. He’s actually trying to maintain the integrity of the game.

Quote the rule that says you can't cut off the head of a metric target.

 

Where does it say a metal no shoot has to look like an unaltered target? 

 

Altered targets get used in matches all the time,  are you saying they are illegal targets?

 

Isn't spray painting hard cover on a target altering a target?

 

Is cutting a target in half altering a target?

[bret]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

 DNROI has correctly clarified it so it matters little what we think

An email from Troy is not a Ruling.

[broadside72]

Paint the upper corners black and make it NPM\hardcover in those areas to make it general metric shape?

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

  Besides DNROI has correctly clarified it so it matters little what we think

 

agreed. this one goes against the plain meaning of english words, and also appears to serve no conceivable sporting purpose except to make life more expensive for clubs, but at least everyone is wrong together and consistent, just like the 1-foot in and 1-foot out thing.

 

Doesn't make that much diff to me. I'll just use hardcover plates and less leave even less target available to make a similar risk-reward situation to a no-shoot from that position.

Edited March 19, 2019 by motosapiens

[NickBlasta]

3 hours ago, bret said:

Quote the rule that says you can't cut off the head of a metric target.

 

Where does it say a metal no shoot has to look like an unaltered target? 

 

Altered targets get used in matches all the time,  are you saying they are illegal targets?

 

Isn't spray painting hard cover on a target altering a target?

 

Is cutting a target in half altering a target?

 

This is personally how I interpret it, I can cut a nice square or rectangle out of the middle of the metric target and have it be legal, so my steel rectangle is the general shape of a legal target.

"General" is a very generous word that you could, without clarification, use to justify almost anything.

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

"General" is a very generous word that you could, without clarification, use to justify almost anything.

 

Which is why we generally try to avoid putting generals in charge of our government...... 

[Sarge]

14 hours ago, bret said:

Quote the rule that says you can't cut off the head of a metric target.

 

Where does it say a metal no shoot has to look like an unaltered target? 

 

Altered targets get used in matches all the time,  are you saying they are illegal targets?

 

Isn't spray painting hard cover on a target altering a target?

 

Is cutting a target in half altering a target?

LOL you missed my entire point!

[shred]

The rule currently says :

 

"Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized cardboard targets may be used. "

 

Rule 4.2 that lets you cut targets is titled  "4.2 Approved Targets – Cardboard", so while cut partials may be 'approved', the rules don't call them 'authorized'

 

You'd have to find a USPSA "Authorized" partially cut-away target (maybe some of the pre-cut ones are?) to match the steel NS.