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USPSA carry optics clarification


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I've got a glock 19 rmr that I'd like to try out in the carry optics division. I've tried reading the rules and I think I know the answers to these questions but I'd like to know for sure before I show up to my next match.

1) I have a small ledge cut into the frame for my support-hand thumb. I've heard this called a thumb ledge / accelerator cut / gas-pedal. Is this legal in USPSA carry optics? If not, is there anything that can be done to make the gun legal for the division? It's actually my real carry gun, I didn't get it for USPSA. The cut isn't even that useful but I wanted to try it.

2) I switched up my belt for use in a specific outlaw match near me, and I have put a safariland UBL mid-ride drop on my holster (used to be mounted directly at the belt line). My glock 34 still has the heel of the butt of the grip above the top of the belt when holstered, but my glock 19 is very close to being even with the top of the belt, to possibly / marginally under the topmost level of the belt. Is this legal? If not I guess I'll switch it back, but I do like the slight drop.

 

Thanks for the help, feels like you need a legal degree to interpret the written rules sometimes. Much easier when you just see it in person.

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1) The thumb ledge is not legal for CO. I don’t know how to make it legal again. 

 

2) You’ll have to switch it back. Here is the rule that covers this:


• The drop offset type holster is allowed in Carry Optics Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria are met.

 

Hope this helps. 

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I am debating between going open with the 19 or sticking in production with the 34. There's a bunch of really outstanding shooters at the local matches including GM's and national champs so either way I'm not gonna win, I just do it because it's so darn fun. The red dot is awesome though, I love that thing.

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8 hours ago, Wideload said:

Just run the 19 rmr in open at couple local matches and compare your scores against othe CO shooters.    If you like it enough, you can pick up a g19 lower or build a dedicated CO gun on a full sized frame. 

 

Yep. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/14/2019 at 4:19 PM, dapribek said:

1) The thumb ledge is not legal for CO. I don’t know how to make it legal again. 

 

2) You’ll have to switch it back. Here is the rule that covers this:


• The drop offset type holster is allowed in Carry Optics Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria are met.

 

Hope this helps. 

 

I now need clarification as well. My G19 with RMR is my carry gun, so that is what I was going to use for my first USPSA match, but now I may not be able to do so without figuring out a different holster situation, which I can easily do as right now I am using Safariland holster QLS system so I could get their molle attachment to put on my belt.
For clarification I read rule 5.2.7.2, and it states as long as the butt of the handgun is not below the top of the belt, so would it be this rule or the rule stated in Appendix D4 rule 20?

 

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

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I think it just boils down to the butt of the handgun not being below the top of the belt. From D4:

 

• The drop offset type holster is allowed in Production division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2, and the rest of the criteria are met.

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5.2.7.2 is present so that Item 20, Holster Restrictions, in the appendix (not present for PCC) can refer to it. Open, Limited/L10, and Revolver do not have the height restriction, you can drop them as low as you want. Production, Single Stack, and CO all refer back to 5.2.7.2 to justify the drop offset restriction. 

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5.2.7.2 is present so that Item 20, Holster Restrictions, in the appendix (not present for PCC) can refer to it. Open, Limited/L10, and Revolver do not have the height restriction, you can drop them as low as you want. Production, Single Stack, and CO all refer back to 5.2.7.2 to justify the drop offset restriction. 
Umm... No.

All divisions require the heel of the butt above the belt per 5.2.7.2.

Single stack dropped it's unique holster requirement with this rule book. Production, single stack and carry optics require that all belt equipment is behind the point of the hip bone. (To be fair, production has an exemption for moon clip and speedloader holders in front of the hip.)
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1 hour ago, PatJones said:

Umm... No.

All divisions require the heel of the butt above the belt per 5.2.7.2.

Single stack dropped it's unique holster requirement with this rule book. Production, single stack and carry optics require that all belt equipment is behind the point of the hip bone. (To be fair, production has an exemption for moon clip and speedloader holders in front of the hip.)

 

If there is an NROI ruling that supports you I would love to know about it because I want my rulings as an RO to be consistent with NROI. But without such a ruling, I disagree with your interpretation. I think this comes down to the question: is 5.2.7.2 a holster restriction or a restriction on the mounting height of the handgun?

 

Quote

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

 

My answer, obviously, is that it is a holster restriction. Section 5.2 is "Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment", and in the rule itself the grammatical subject is "a holster", therefore 5.2.7.2 is a holster restriction, not a handgun restriction. The contents address how to determine if a holster is too low, when applicable, by using the handgun as a reference point but specifies that Appendix D can overrule it. If the rule was "A handgun, that when holstered, has the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8", then I would agree with you that it is a rule regarding the position of the handgun. 

 

Prod/SS/CO all specifically cite 5.2.7.2. in Item 20, of their respective appendices, whereas Open/Revo/Lim/L10 all just say "No" holster restrictions. If 5.2.7.2 is a holster restriction then that "No" clearly overrides it. If 5.2.7.2 is not a holster restriction and the height limit applies to all divisions, then there is no logical reason why it would not be cited in Open/Revo/Lim/L10 as a reminder just as it is in Prod/SS/CO or left out of all of DX.20 sections entirely (since it isn't a holster restriction).

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10 minutes ago, regor said:

 

If thereIf the rule was "A handgun, that when holstered, has the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8", then I would agree with you that it is a rule regarding the position of the handgun. 

 

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt,

 

it still refers to the butt of the gun.  it is true that it covers the holster...but it refers to the gun while holstered...how else would you have the gun below the belt and satisfy 5.2.7.2?

 

the only exception for the gun to be below the belt is if you are LE/Mil and using duty thigh holster...

Edited by racerba
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10 minutes ago, racerba said:

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt,

 

..."except as specified in Appendix D", where Open/Revo/Lim/L10 specifically say there are no holster restrictions. 

 

The LE/Mil exception, 5.2.8, just says that at Level 1 matches you can shoot duty gear in a division that it would otherwise not be allowed in (e.g. thigh rig in Prod/CO/SS, which specifically disallow handguns below the belt), it does not specifically say that thigh holsters, or any duty gear more generally, do not satisfy the requirements for any division when used by someone who is not LE/Mil. In fact the last sentence specifically implies that some of that gear is legal in some divisions. 

 

5.2.7.1 does say no "tie-down" holsters (LE/Mil exempt) but not all holsters that put the heel below the belt are tie-down, so what we are discussing is out of scope. 

 

Quote

5.2.8 Competitors deemed by the Match Director to be full-time law enforcement officers with arrest powers or military personnel on current active duty orders, may be entitled to use their duty holsters or similar holster and related equipment when such equipment does not strictly satisfy the equipment or other requirements of the declared Division. The Range Master will remain the final authority in respect of the safety and suitability of using such equipment at USPSA matches. The use of such equipment, except as otherwise permitted in the rules, is restricted to Level I matches only.

 

Again, this centers around the question: is 5.2.7.2 a holster restriction? It is in the "Holster and Other Competitor Equipment" section, it is specifically referred to in the "Holster and Magazine Holder Restrictions" sections of D4, D5, and D7, the grammatical subject of the rule is the holster, and it specifically states that it can be overridden by Appendix D (unlike 5.2.7.1 which only allows 5.2.8 to override it). 

 

Now, I will roll back my original statement, you cannot drop them "as low as you want" because Item 10 in D1, D2, and D3 say, "Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt" is 3 3/8" and D6 says 2 1/8". You can do the trigonometry for what vertical drop that allows with your offset, though the actual heel of the butt could be further depending on cant. 

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14 hours ago, regor said:

 

..."except as specified in Appendix D", where Open/Revo/Lim/L10 specifically say there are no holster restrictions. 

 

except as specified...it is specified in PD, SS, CO.  since there is no further restriction specified in O/R/L/L10, rule 5.2.7.2 applies. 

 

If you think that the "no restrictions" are given with Appendix D to be followed, why is 5.2.7.2 needed then? 

 

Since Appendix D for PD/ss/CE doesn't mention the butt being above the belt line, I guess you can wear the gun below the belt line for those division also...

 

Appendix D's restriction is on the location of the holster/mag pouches as it is located on the belt in relation to the hip bone...it refers to E3...

 

 

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18 hours ago, PatJones said:

Umm... No.

All divisions require the heel of the butt above the belt per 5.2.7.2.

Single stack dropped it's unique holster requirement with this rule book. Production, single stack and carry optics require that all belt equipment is behind the point of the hip bone. (To be fair, production has an exemption for moon clip and speedloader holders in front of the hip.)

 

 

Correct answer right here

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3 hours ago, racerba said:

except as specified...it is specified in PD, SS, CO.  since there is no further restriction specified in O/R/L/L10, rule 5.2.7.2 applies. 

 

Except as specified does not mean that it can only be more restrictive, it means it can be different. 

 

3 hours ago, racerba said:

Since Appendix D for PD/ss/CE doesn't mention the butt being above the belt line, I guess you can wear the gun below the belt line for those division also...

Did you look at Appendix D? Because all three of those specifically mention the butt needing to be above the belt, whereas the others do not. Why leave it out of the other 4 divisions' appendices if it applies there as well? 

 

D4.20: "The drop offset type holster is allowed in Production division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2, and the rest of the criteria are met."

 

D5.20: "The drop offset type holster is allowed in Single Stack division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2, and the rest of the criteria are met."

 

D7.20: "The drop offset type holster is allowed in Carry Optics Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria are met." 

 

2 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

I have an email into my friend Troy and I await his response. 

 

I fully expect Troy to say that 5.2.7.2 applies to all handgun divisions, I just think a strict reading of the rules do not agree with that and therefore the rule book should be changed so that either all of the D appendices have the note about 5.2.7.2 in Item 20, or the "accept as specified in Appendix D" clause should be removed from 5.2.7.2 since SS no longer has a different holster height requirement. 

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And as suspected, here is Troy's response:

 

"No. Height to belt applies across all divisions. The position and other thing mentioned in the appendix refer to type of holster and location on the belt. Check production or single stack for an example."

 

So there you have it. Case closed. Let's move on. 

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