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School me on PCC


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I also had to have Memphis Mechanic ream the Guard barrel to run loads that plunk in my stock CZ barrels... So consider that expense and/or consideration.

I only buy ammo, don't reload.  So probably not a heavy factor for me.

 

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For S&G I loaded up some of my rounds and popped off a few rounds. The difference was night and day. I bought the MPX from him there on the spot.

Interesting info and useful.  Thanks.  As I recall it, Memphis was the fellow in here using a tuned Guard and putting a lot of weight on reliability and that he's got it flat?  How many rounds have you thrown through the MPX and what is your take on his opinion there?  

Honestly, I'd have to be fair and look deeper into the newish MPX Competition, but I vaguely recall somewhat ignoring it based on the Gen1/2 MPX complaints/issues.  I'll research the newish one more to see what was addressed.

 

I'm not into USPSA heavily, so wouldn't be focused on PCC use there full-time, but would be using it for other 3gun, steel action, USPSA occasionally, etc. matches.  That being said, I'm a buy once, cry once guy that wants minimal headache and heavy on reliability.  

On a sidenote, the cost of their mags is stupid, but I use to compete with HK pistols, so mag cost and lack of aftermarket support isn't foreign to me.

Edited by AustinWolv
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I had two Scorpions, wonderful guns but no way I'd shoot it over your other choices (MPX, JP, MBX). It simply moves the dot far more than your other options when shooting fast. If it's just for fun, it's fine and super reliable and tolerant of ammo. 

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I'm going to assume you were responding to me, and there is no way I'm considering the Scorpion for legit competition.  Absolutely agree it is a fun gun, reliable truck/field gun, etc.  I have one for SBR suppressed fun and have run it for fun at matches, but it is limited IMO.  Still a good gun in general.  Not for gaming though.

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If you plan on getting mag extensions, especially the taylor freelance goliath, the factory ammo you use will have to be on the short side.  I have a ton of the blazer stuff but its oal is too long for the mag extensions I have, so it doesnt feed reliably in my cmmg guard.  I bought the bolt, barrel, upper and lower all for the guard so it's technically a Franken guard but it's basically all cmmg parts except the handguard,trigger,and stock.

I hand load for the guard now but the only factory ammo I could get to feed reliably with those mag extensions was Remington umc.

Also to add to your decision on which gun to get.  My guard running factory ammo vs a friends blowback ar9 running taccom bolt/barrel, and taccom buffer also using factory ammo are very similar in recoil/sight movement.  He initially had some issues with the ejector but since getting it tuned properly his gun has actually been more reliable than my guard for significantly less cost overall. 

Edited by ferch
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20 minutes ago, ferch said:

If you plan on getting mag extensions, especially the taylor freelance goliath, the factory ammo you use will have to be on the short side.  I have a ton of the blazer stuff but its oal is too long for the mag extensions I have, so it doesnt feed reliably in my cmmg guard.  I bought the bolt, barrel, upper and lower all for the guard so it's technically a Franken guard but it's basically all cmmg parts except the handguard,trigger,and stock.

I hand load for the guard now but the only factory ammo I could get to feed reliably with those mag extensions was Remington umc.

Also to add to your decision on which gun to get.  My guard running factory ammo vs a friends blowback ar9 running taccom bolt/barrel, and taccom buffer also using factory ammo are very similar in recoil/sight movement.  He initially had some issues with the ejector but since getting it tuned properly his gun has actually been more reliable than my guard for significantly less cost overall. 

I've shot a crap ton of Blazer brass through my MBX extension. Mini specifically. No feed issues to speak of. But it's HOT ammo in a full length PCC 

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I'm still on the fence about what to get. Here's my current pros / cons based on all the feedback thus far, plus my own thoughts:

 

MPX: softest shooting (recoil impulse and dot getting back on target) / but mainly proprietary parts, expensive, potentially mediocre reliability, frequent maintenance. Purely subjectively I don't like the way the stock handguard looks, diagonal cuts seem un-ergonomic to me. Sig USA has a mixed reputation but will probably stand behind the product.

 

MBX, JP: guaranteed to work, good shooting characteristics out of the box, good support, parts interchangeability / but lower performance to dollar ratio than franken-ar9

 

Guard: innovative and superior operating system, softer shooting than a standard ar9, cheaper than MPX, JP or MBX / but proprietary parts, CMMG has a mixed reputation for support and doesn't seem to care as much about the competition market.

 

Frankenbuild: can cherry-pick and tune the best parts, potentially lowest cost by a good margin, parts interchangeability, can match the softness and rapid dot re-aquisition of all but the MPX / but no support, more user tuning and work necessary, potentially unreliable or even nonfunctional if you don't pick the right components

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I would disagree with the lower performance comments on JP, by the time you get your franenbuild to run it will cost more then you realize, by the time it runs no saving . Buy JP nothing else needed , after things slow down for you and you want to move to the next level buy lightweight hand guard .

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1 hour ago, TNREDNECK said:

I would disagree with the lower performance comments on JP, by the time you get your franenbuild to run it will cost more then you realize, by the time it runs no saving . Buy JP nothing else needed , after things slow down for you and you want to move to the next level buy lightweight hand guard .

Sorry but I disagree with you,

In my shooting area there are about 20 or so dedicated PCC shooters. Two of them went with JP's. I think they paid about $1,500 less optic. Replaced the cheap stock, got rid

of the very heavy hand guard, put on a $300 optic and one put a hyper fire in it. The other shooter is going to put a hyper fire in his. Now you are up to about $2,000. They run Great! They should for that kind of money!

The rest of us built ours with not the very best but good parts. Some went with some JP parts. Not the barrel, two heavy. With no more than any new competition gun problems they all run as good as any JP. Feed them good ammo, take care of your mags, keep them clean and they run.

Cost around $1000 depending on choice of optic.

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6 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Sorry but I disagree with you,

In my shooting area there are about 20 or so dedicated PCC shooters. Two of them went with JP's. I think they paid about $1,500 less optic. Replaced the cheap stock, got rid

of the very heavy hand guard, put on a $300 optic and one put a hyper fire in it. The other shooter is going to put a hyper fire in his. Now you are up to about $2,000. They run Great! They should for that kind of money!

The rest of us built ours with not the very best but good parts. Some went with some JP parts. Not the barrel, two heavy. With no more than any new competition gun problems they all run as good as any JP. Feed them good ammo, take care of your mags, keep them clean and they run.

Cost around $1000 depending on choice of optic.

I agree. None of the serious JP shooters around here left them stock. 

 

Trigger. Handgaurd. Buttstock. All replaced. 

 

Furthermore... Two of them dropped the JP's for Mpx's this year! 

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I never said that upgrades were a bad thing generally new shooters want dependability first then after they shoot for awhile then do some upgrades. Sure you can save some money building your own but unless you have someone else to give you the receipt it can get expensive. I believe he’s new to PCC 

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17 hours ago, TNREDNECK said:

Another thought focus on dot movement, recoil is not going to make much difference.

 

This is key.

 

I’m a CMMG Guard shooter. I built a custom setup on colt mags with a QC10 lower first, and after $500+ in buffer systems and mag height tuning and such I just could not get it relaible. Colt mags suck to load and suck to seat unless downloaded dramatically.

 

I’m on a KE Arms glock lower now because I’m a lefty and it has an ambi mag catch... but while it dramatically increased relaibility (made it three flawless matches) it recently cropped up with an ejection issue at the last match.

 

I’m well over $3.5k into my project gun - which is fine. I expected it. But you will be well ahead to do one of two things:

 

Buy a JP and swap handguard/grip/buffer system to meet your needs.

 

Build on a QC10 upper and lower with the barrel of your choice, and all JP moving parts inside of it. (Note: this will likely wind up costing you more than the JP rifle up front.) Building winds up costing you more once you’ve bought and tried two handguards, three buffers, three recoil springs...

 

These are two well-tested paths to success. The GUARD system isn’t massively popular and there just aren’t a lot of us tuning and troubleshooting it yet. JP and QC10 and Taccom and MBX and the other blowback systems have been done to death.

 

Now back to the quote from TNRedneck: flatness matters. How hard it kicks does not. The guard isn’t slightly softer shooting than blowback. It is MASSIVELY SOFTER SHOOTING than blowback.

 

Subjectively it’s about half the recoil when both guns are short-stroked and heavily sprung to make them shoot laser flat.

 

But while it is neat? That offers no competitive advantage: all the guns are good and flat, and you shoot just as quickly and accurately with a JP as my Guard. At the end of the day, you’re a grown man shooting a handgun from your shoulder - even the higher recoiling guns are still just fine to control comfortably.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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2 hours ago, TNREDNECK said:

I never said that upgrades were a bad thing generally new shooters want dependability first then after they shoot for awhile then do some upgrades. Sure you can save some money building your own but unless you have someone else to give you the receipt it can get expensive. I believe he’s new to PCC 

Been in the USPSA, IDPA, 3gun and steel challenge game from almost day one. Over 25 years. I built my first PCC before they had a class for them. Myself and many others do not want to put $2,000 into  a gun that you can build for $1000 or less and be just as competitive at any level. Ever hear of a guy called Max. He  does not shoot a JP and he could be sponsored by any one he wants  Fit and finish, who cares in the games we are talking about.

I think most people who buy over priced PCC's do not have the knowledge or do not want to put in the effort to make a home grown gun run. And then there are the shooters that $2,000 means nothing to them.

 

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6 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

Been in the USPSA, IDPA, 3gun and steel challenge game from almost day one. Over 25 years. I built my first PCC before they had a class for them. Myself and many others do not want to put $2,000 into  a gun that you can build for $1000 or less and be just as competitive at any level. Ever hear of a guy called Max. He  does not shoot a JP and he could be sponsored by any one he wants  Fit and finish, who cares in the games we are talking about.

I think most people who buy over priced PCC's do not have the knowledge or do not want to put in the effort to make a home grown gun run. And then there are the shooters that $2,000 means nothing to them.

 

 

I promise you the qc10 build max had before signing limecat cost more than a jp. 

Trigger $250 hiperfire/ar gold 

buffer $170 and spring blitz 5015 carbine jp 

upper lower $450 qc10

lpk $75 unknown 

stock $50 slk

grip $25 unknown 

buffer tube  $50unknown

barrel $180si 14.5

bolt $150si

handguard $250 coda cf

comp$200 answer

not to mention trails and tribulations 

Rainier ch $80

Bmiller magwell $75

Edited by Bwillis
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I was not saying that JP is the only gun just that is very reliable, and easy to shoot and a good investment, you get what you pay for. Most of the custom builds with the components you need to be competitive if that’s what your trying to do will be well over 1 k but that’s each persons choice the thread was asking for help in making a good decision. My son is a master class shooter and has built all his guns and we set down did the math , there was very little saving for me so I bought the JP and am glad I did .  

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You have to know what you’re doing when building a gun and even then, you’ll experiment with some parts and likely have a headache or two. 

 

A JP will run right out of the box.

 

By the time you change a handguard and try a buffer weight or two, you’ll be deep into the JP gun compared to a built gun, too.

 

If you think you can have an optimally set up PCC for under $1500 (which means doing the legwork on buffers, triggers, grips, stocks, handguards and ammo to match the gun to your shooting style) then you are kidding yourself.

 

(Or pretending your PSA upper & BCG-equipped gun is reliable and competitive. :D )

 

Pay to play, whether you buy the pieces individually or buy a top-tier rifle where someone has done all of that work for you. (JP, MBX, Limcat, etc)

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You have to know what you’re doing when building a gun and even then, you’ll experiment with some parts and likely have a headache or two. 

 

A JP will run right out of the box.

 

By the time you change a handguard and try a buffer weight or two, you’ll be deep into the JP gun compared to a built gun, too.

 

If you think you can have an optimally set up PCC for under $1500 (which means doing the legwork on buffers, triggers, grips, stocks, handguards and ammo to match the gun to your shooting style) then you are kidding yourself.

 

(Or pretending your PSA upper & BCG-equipped gun is reliable and competitive. :D )

 

Pay to play, whether you buy the pieces individually or buy a top-tier rifle where someone has done all of that work for you. (JP, MBX, Limcat, etc)

 

 

4 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You have to know what you’re doing when building a gun and even then, you’ll experiment with some parts and likely have a headache or two. 

 

A JP will run right out of the box.

 

By the time you change a handguard and try a buffer weight or two, you’ll be deep into the JP gun compared to a built gun, too.

 

If you think you can have an optimally set up PCC for under $1500 (which means doing the legwork on buffers, triggers, grips, stocks, handguards and ammo to match the gun to your shooting style) then you are kidding yourself.

 

(Or pretending your PSA upper & BCG-equipped gun is reliable and competitive. :D )

 

Pay to play, whether you buy the pieces individually or buy a top-tier rifle where someone has done all of that work for you. (JP, MBX, Limcat, etc)

 

Our guns run,

You assume a lot.

Period

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11 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

 

Our guns run,

You assume a lot.

Period

 

I see a lot.

 

Facts is facts.

 

My gun has run for 1,500 - 2,000 rounds between funky issues cropping up. And a lot of PSA and other random middle-tier franken-builds will run for half a season or more, too.

 

It’s not reliable by this game’s reckoning until it consistently goes well over 5,000 rounds without a single hiccup.

 

That’s a high benchmark, and I see a lot of guys with claimed “reliable” guns who think nothing about racking a stovepipe or dud round out of the gun once or twice during a match.

 

(5k+ does include cleaning and oiling as much as needed.)

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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Imo any can be competitive it comes down to the person behind the gun. All pcc’s have to be tuned period, load, buffer, spring weight. If you like to tinker( like I do )don’t buy a box gun. If you don’t like to tinker buy a box gun. I bought a mbx great gun never had a single failure. I’ve changed bolt, stock, trigger, and grip I’m in for 2k just off parts changed and gun not including optics. Franken build with help from another member I’ve built my ideal pcc. It’s been 2 months of tweaking this tweaking that but I have it ironed out and shooting like a sewing machine. 

Jp-mbx-mpx or build get whichever your heart desires and then buy a metric ton of ammo and shoot it. 

 

Edited by Bwillis
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Here's a build that I think could be competitive and reliable. I'm going to assume you buy the parts over time with small but not incredible discounts. You could do much better if you bought during major sales or had more parts laying around. I'm using current prices:

 

CMC trigger- 165

Taccom complete upper- 500

QC10 lower- 250

LPK no trigger- 50

Taccom buffer- 85

Stock, grip- 50 (probably more if you buy both new but I'm going to assume we all probably have at least one stock or grip laying around)

Buffer tube and castle nut: 30

 

Total: 1130

 

Alternatively:

Factory CMMG guard 16"- 1050

CMC trigger- 165

Taccom buffer- 85

Stock, grip- 50

 

Total: 1350

 

For a JP GMR15, I think you're going to start around 1600 at best unless there's a discount I'm missing. Then you need a new handguard for 150 (minimum) and stock (assume free). Let's say 1750 total to get it where you're happy, and I think that is conservative.

 

JP is more than 50% higher priced than frankengun if these numbers are even close to being right. I'm just trying to put some realistic numbers out there so we aren't comparing apples to oranges.

 

$600 is three and a half cases of factory ammo (Blazer Brass), and at my level I guarantee you that 3.5 cases through a Frankengun in practice will get me placing better than paying up for a JP.  Perhaps at a higher skill level I'd be able to wring an extra few percentage points of performance out of a better tool. I'm sure there are quite a few outstanding shooters in this very thread that would appreciate the difference, but I'm just not there yet.

 

I think I'm leaning towards the Frankengun.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, JGT said:

Here's a build that I think could be competitive and reliable. I'm going to assume you buy the parts over time with small but not incredible discounts. You could do much better if you bought during major sales or had more parts laying around. I'm using current prices:

 

CMC trigger- 165

Taccom complete upper- 500

QC10 lower- 250

LPK no trigger- 50

Taccom buffer- 85

Stock, grip- 50 (probably more if you buy both new but I'm going to assume we all probably have at least one stock or grip laying around)

Buffer tube and castle nut: 30

 

Total: 1130

 

Alternatively:

Factory CMMG guard 16"- 1050

CMC trigger- 165

Taccom buffer- 85

Stock, grip- 50

 

Total: 1350

 

For a JP GMR15, I think you're going to start around 1600 at best unless there's a discount I'm missing. Then you need a new handguard for 150 (minimum) and stock (assume free). Let's say 1750 total to get it where you're happy, and I think that is conservative.

 

JP is more than 50% higher priced than frankengun if these numbers are even close to being right. I'm just trying to put some realistic numbers out there so we aren't comparing apples to oranges.

 

$600 is three and a half cases of factory ammo (Blazer Brass), and at my level I guarantee you that 3.5 cases through a Frankengun in practice will get me placing better than paying up for a JP.  Perhaps at a higher skill level I'd be able to wring an extra few percentage points of performance out of a better tool. I'm sure there are quite a few outstanding shooters in this very thread that would appreciate the difference, but I'm just not there yet.

 

I think I'm leaning towards the Frankengun.

 

 

 

 

Dont forget a bmiller magwell for the lower

Edited by Bwillis
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