Stop before firing a shot

[PatJones]

hmm,
If the gun was drawn, then the course of fire began.  The shooter owns the issue of not turning on the dot.
If the shooter did not hear the beep, which has happened in some matches, I have seen the dialog that goes along the lines of 'I cannot hear the beep.'  The RO typically either holds the timer closer or taps the shooter.

The course of fire begins at make ready. 8.3.1.

If a competitor fails to react to the beep, then 8.3.4 applies.

[pjb45]

On 3/16/2019 at 5:18 AM, PatJones said:

The course of fire begins at make ready. 8.3.1.

If a competitor fails to react to the beep, then 8.3.4 applies.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Thanks for the clarification.

 

But the real clarification is still, what constitutes a reaction?

[Mcfoto]

On 3/12/2019 at 8:17 AM, egd5 said:

You hear the beep--raise the gun up but realize you didn't turn on your dot, or whatever,--before you fire a shot can you stop and ask for a restart, or do you have to carry on through the stage?

 

Here’s the OP’s scenario. He indicated he “raised the gun” so whether drawing from a holster or lifting from a table or bringing a PCC up from a start position, he’d be hard to argue he hadn’t “reacted.”

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

But the real clarification is still, what constitutes a reaction?

 

I lean toward at least grabbing the gun.  I have seen people jerk and then pause, and turn and basically look at you  like did I hear that?  At which time i would restart  them. I could also see someone saying a fairly gross movement toward the gun would be a reaction.  I think the  gun coming  out of the holster would definitely constitute a reaction.  

 

Every time i have seen the jerk, turn, look, the shooter was not sure they heard the beep.   I have never seen anyone try to game it, but someone probably has.  There is the clarification according to me, probably won't do you no good though 

[gunshrink]

I may be oversimplifying but how about just turn on the damn dot - should not be that big of a deal. Takes a second or two. Also good argument for taking a sight picture during make ready - last season I had an unloaded start - it was a rainy day so I had been keeping the optic cover on until make ready - which on the unloaded start on barrel failed to do. So, buzzer goes off, I slam the mag into the gun and move to the first target bring up my gun with the cover still on - so, rip it off, back on target and run the stage, Learned that even in that situation I should follow the pattern that I have. I use a DPP which has instant on with movement so I don’t shut off until the end of the match. I have seen many co and open shooters do this and they realize it and turn on the optic and continue. Interesting thread though and appreciate the input from everyone. One of the fun things with this sport that other than the absolute of safety lots of ways to look and learn. 

[Sarge]

16 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I lean toward at least grabbing the gun.  I have seen people jerk and then pause, and turn and basically look at you  like did I hear that?  At which time i would restart  them. I could also see someone saying a fairly gross movement toward the gun would be a reaction.  I think the  gun coming  out of the holster would definitely constitute a reaction.  

 

Every time i have seen the jerk, turn, look, the shooter was not sure they heard the beep.   I have never seen anyone try to game it, but someone probably has.  There is the clarification according to me, probably won't do you no good though 

Ha! I read every word some people say on here. Some I totally ignore. But you are one of the ones I read. Doesn’t mean I agree though.

  a reaction is a reaction to me. If I hit the timer and you lurch, twitch, move, you reacted. But I’m all for DNROI clarifying what constitutes a reaction.

[RJH]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

Ha! I read every word some people say on here. Some I totally ignore. But you are one of the ones I read. Doesn’t mean I agree though.

  a reaction is a reaction to me. If I hit the timer and you lurch, twitch, move, you reacted. But I’m all for DNROI clarifying what constitutes a reaction.

 

Right, i could see that interpretation, too.  I actually have never had anyone "kinda" react other than one or two hard of hearing guys, and I just restated them cause i was pretty sure they were unsure of the beep. They gave me the, "was that the beep" look and I knew that they couldn't hear well

 

I did have a guy just take off one day cause he assumed he had missed the beep.  He had gotten short beeped a time or two that day by  another RO, so when i actually waited a couple seconds he assumed he missed it.  Amid laughter I got him stopped and restarted him, it was a three gun match and he hadn't fired yet.  It was pretty comical

[Joe4d]

22 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I lean toward at least grabbing the gun.  I have seen people jerk and then pause, and turn and basically look at you  like did I hear that?  At which time i would restart  them. I could also see someone saying a fairly gross movement toward the gun would be a reaction.  I think the  gun coming  out of the holster would definitely constitute a reaction.  

 

Every time i have seen the jerk, turn, look, the shooter was not sure they heard the beep.   I have never seen anyone try to game it, but someone probably has.  There is the clarification according to me, probably won't do you no good though 

gonna agree with this, and would handle the twitch , look the same way,,, basically go back to make ready and ask if they wanted me to tap their shoulder on the beep,,, has happened maybe a couple times in many years.

[JonasAberg]

As already mentioned, IPSC rule 8.3.4.2 applies; he is still on the clock, not entitled to reshoot.

I first started thinking that an RO could perhaps grant a reshoot in a level 1 club match but that is really the place where the new guys learn and this is exactly the kind of situation where you learn to check your equipment before the start signal, so no - a reshoot would not be granted there either.

[DKorn]

4 hours ago, JonasAberg said:

As already mentioned, IPSC rule 8.3.4.2 applies; he is still on the clock, not entitled to reshoot.

I first started thinking that an RO could perhaps grant a reshoot in a level 1 club match but that is really the place where the new guys learn and this is exactly the kind of situation where you learn to check your equipment before the start signal, so no - a reshoot would not be granted there either.

 

At a Level 1 local match, I wouldn’t grant a reshoot for this. 

 

If it was a new shooter, I would consider prompting them to turn on the dot and keep going (coaching is allowed at a level 1 match under 8.6.2.1), but would see how they handled it first. I’d rather let them figure it out on their own if they can, but also don’t want a new shooter at a local match to feel cheated of getting to shoot the course of fire because of something silly like this. 

[Gary Stevens]

Enforce the rules but at the same time treat shooters the way you would like to be treated.