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Production gun mod


mro111lland
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Uhhh, a drilled and tapped frame is ok in SS using a re-purposed 1990 Open Gun, I specifically asked the dnroi about it.  As long as the holes are not intended for lightening the frame it may be ok, Rule 22 does rule out a lot of things, but it's meant to curtail gamesmanship is modifying a pistol.

I'd contact Troy dnroi@uspsa.org and tell him you have a Limited Gun that was drilled and tapped for a thumb rest and if the gun was also legal for production would it still be if you removed the thumb rest?

If he says yes, print it out and stick it in your bag if you're worried about it.

If he says no, you know for sure.

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On 3/8/2019 at 8:57 PM, lacivilian said:

No, Appendix D4, Rule 22.0

 

So when did holes through a frame become anything other than stippling?

 

OP, you I’d say you’re just fine with the thumb rest removed. Frame modification is allowed, and that is all a hole in a frame is. 

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8 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Uhhh, a drilled and tapped frame is ok in SS using a re-purposed 1990 Open Gun, I specifically asked the dnroi about it.  As long as the holes are not intended for lightening the frame it may be ok, Rule 22 does rule out a lot of things, but it's meant to curtail gamesmanship is modifying a pistol.

I'd contact Troy dnroi@uspsa.org and tell him you have a Limited Gun that was drilled and tapped for a thumb rest and if the gun was also legal for production would it still be if you removed the thumb rest?

If he says yes, print it out and stick it in your bag if you're worried about it.

If he says no, you know for sure.

This is the route you need to take. Just because it doesn’t make a difference doesn’t mean it’s “legal.”

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29 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That would make me crazy, it would be like I thought I was breaking the rules but trying to hide it. 

What would make me crazy is what will the different ROs say when they see the holes. Grip taping them would help alleviate the craziness I think. 

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10 minutes ago, HI5-O said:

What would make me crazy is what will the different ROs say when they see the holes. Grip taping them would help alleviate the craziness I think. 

 

Checking the uspsa production rules just now, I see where they allow grip tape on the grips, i do not see where they allow grip tape anywhere else?

 

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1. stippling of the grips = drilling holes in the frame to attach a thumb rest? good luck convincing a RM or the NROI of that.

 

2. all of these parts of appendix D4 seem to govern drilling holes in the frame of a production gun:

 

21 Authorized modifications (strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines). Please note that, during a match, a competitor may be required to demonstrate that their gun complies with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation authorizing any disputed modification. If the competitor cannot identify an authorizing rules clause or published interpretation, the Range Master shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production division use and shall move the competitor to Open Division.

 

22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features. Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation that specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division. Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited.

 

Special conditions:

5. UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

 

I don't see anything in the other parts of appendix D4 that specifically allows drilling holes in the frame of a gun.

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On 3/8/2019 at 7:39 PM, mro111lland said:

If I drill and tap the frame of my production gun to accept a thumb rest so I could also run limited, would I still be production legal with the holes there?

 

Could you buy a different slide release that had a thumb rest on it, then swap it out when shooting production?

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32 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

1. stippling of the grips = drilling holes in the frame to attach a thumb rest? good luck convincing a RM or the NROI of that.

 

2. all of these parts of appendix D4 seem to govern drilling holes in the frame of a production gun:

 

21 Authorized modifications (strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines). Please note that, during a match, a competitor may be required to demonstrate that their gun complies with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation authorizing any disputed modification. If the competitor cannot identify an authorizing rules clause or published interpretation, the Range Master shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production division use and shall move the competitor to Open Division.

 

22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features. Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation that specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division. Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited.

 

Special conditions:

5. UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

 

I don't see anything in the other parts of appendix D4 that specifically allows drilling holes in the frame of a gun.

You are absolutely correct on D4, but never hurts to ask about the holes (the thumb rest being attached is definitely not legal) and what of having the threaded holes filled with a blank screw?  Might that be acceptable?  I don't think you'd be allowed to put grip tape in that area though.  I had mentioned SS, but those rules aren't quite as strict as Production, don't see the disclaimer on SS.

 

For a local Level 1 Match if you used blank screws to fill the holes, doubt if it would be an issue.  Now if it was your local clubs yearly match or a Level II and up, I'd not think of it unless DNROI approved it first.

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Still gonna have a hard time convincing me that a simple hole in a frame is anything other than a grip modification. 

 

So so we can undercut trigger guards, stipple the hell out of frames, add whatever parts we want, but can’t poke a couple holes in a frame? I don’t think so. 

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6 minutes ago, HCH said:

Still gonna have a hard time convincing me that a simple hole in a frame is anything other than a grip modification. 

 

So so we can undercut trigger guards, stipple the hell out of frames, add whatever parts we want, but can’t poke a couple holes in a frame? I don’t think so. 

The thing is, I don't have to convince you. You would have to convince the RM (or the NROI). Appendix D4 makes is abundantly clear that the onus is on the shooter to identify a clause or published interpretation that allows a particular modification. All the other things you mentioned (undercut trigger guards, stippling, adding certain parts) are legal precisely because they are covered by clauses in D4.

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From the change log:

 

21.4 Grips Grip modifications such as, but not limited to, undercutting/smoothing the trigger guard, adding or removing finger grooves, or adding stippling, grip tape, or checkering are allowed. Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.
Revolver grips may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture.
Special Notes/Clarifications: See 22.2, below, for specifics with regard to modifications on revolver grips.

 

Replaced language on grip modifications with language from Carry Optics Appendix-effectively removing constraints on stippling, checkering, etc, and no reference to E4.

 

     APPENDIX E4
   Checkering, Stippling and/or Application of Grip Tape (Production Division)
Checkering, stippling, and/or tape may only be applied to the areas illustrated by the dashed line boundaries which include the frontstrap and backstrap. Grip Tape cannot be applied to any part of the slide, trigger, trigger guard, or any lever or button. Grip Tape or Grip Sleeves cannot disengage a grip safety.
 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014 Edition

 

 

 

 

So, the underscored is the intent of the rule change for 2019.

Plus the language of, “.........modifications such as, but not limited to, ......”

would lead me to believe grip tape outside of E4 is legal. E4 has been deleted in the 2019 rules update. 

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7 hours ago, HI5-O said:

would lead me to believe grip tape outside of E4 is legal.

 

Maybe.

 

I would look at what you quoted as referring only to grips though and E4 deleted because it was redundant. 

 

Not sure which perspective a RM would have or if they would all be consistent . 

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