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Need Coated 124’s recommendation

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Posted (edited)

Oversized bullets help to prevent gas blow-by.  Gas blowing past the base of the bullet is more likely to soften the lead to the point where it strips off and sticks to the rifling.  

 

All other things being equal, oversized lead bullets simply shoot better, and fouls the barrel less.  Within limits, obviously...  

 

 

Edited by Ken6PPC
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Ken is right. Bigger diameter can be better. I run .357's in my CZ's. It will lead up more if the bullet is not tight going down the barrel. Think of it this way. If the bullet is barely touching the rifling, it is not spinning and is shearing instead, which causes the leading.

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1 hour ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:


What is the reason to use an oversized projectile? It would seem like it would make leading worse, not better. I could see how it helps with accuracy however.


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Leading is more about  barrel fit than hardness or even lube type to a degree.  Undersized bullets allow the pressure to cut between the slug and the bore.  This "gas cutting" causes the lead to melt and smear into the rifling.  The escaping gas can also de-stabilize the bullet as it exits the muzzle which causes poor accuracy and tumbling at times too.  

 

Think about a 22lr.  The lead is mostly pure and soft.  The lube is really thin too, but it shoots at 1200-1400 fps without leading.  So the hardness, the speed, the lube, are all in play here.  The trick is the fit!  Soft lead can conform to the bore with less pressure and seal it.  This gives more accuracy and cleaner shooting.  This is why we have chosen to go softer than most of our competitors.  Loading, especially seating and crimping, needs a little more development with 13 bhn as opposed to 18 bhn.  Swaging happens easier with softer lead, so the whole benefit is lost just when you think you've got it.  NOE expander plugs have proven very useful and economical for loading without issue.  

 

So loading a larger projectile helps seal the bore and reduces leading rather than scraping excess lead off.  There are limits, but usually .002"-003" over bore will be fine.  It is something to test with a sample pack prior to ordering thousands of rounds.  

http://www.brazosprecision.com/Samples_c_28.html

Simply state a size in the comments, otherwise we will ship out .356" for 9mm.  It could take a week to get out custom sizes if we don't have them on the shelf.  Our casting rotation at the moment is pretty flexible though.  So I don't expect much delay.

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14 minutes ago, Lightfoot said:

Leading is more about  barrel fit than hardness or even lube type to a degree.  Undersized bullets allow the pressure to cut between the slug and the bore.  This "gas cutting" causes the lead to melt and smear into the rifling.  The escaping gas can also de-stabilize the bullet as it exits the muzzle which causes poor accuracy and tumbling at times too.  

 

Think about a 22lr.  The lead is mostly pure and soft.  The lube is really thin too, but it shoots at 1200-1400 fps without leading.  So the hardness, the speed, the lube, are all in play here.  The trick is the fit!  Soft lead can conform to the bore with less pressure and seal it.  This gives more accuracy and cleaner shooting.  This is why we have chosen to go softer than most of our competitors.  Loading, especially seating and crimping, needs a little more development with 13 bhn as opposed to 18 bhn.  Swaging happens easier with softer lead, so the whole benefit is lost just when you think you've got it.  NOE expander plugs have proven very useful and economical for loading without issue.  

 

So loading a larger projectile helps seal the bore and reduces leading rather than scraping excess lead off.  There are limits, but usually .002"-003" over bore will be fine.  It is something to test with a sample pack prior to ordering thousands of rounds.  

http://www.brazosprecision.com/Samples_c_28.html

Simply state a size in the comments, otherwise we will ship out .356" for 9mm.  It could take a week to get out custom sizes if we don't have them on the shelf.  Our casting rotation at the moment is pretty flexible though.  So I don't expect much delay.

I’m going to order some .357’s and try that. I do like how accurate these bullets are. 

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Posted (edited)

Its also important that your expander is long enough to cover your seating depth, especially since the 9mm case is tapered.  For the .358s, I get the .358/.361 NOE expander,  which ithey have listed as a rifle length expander and must be shortened and radiused for use with 9mm.   So, if your seating depth is .220" for an OAL of 1.130" using the Brazos 125g RN,  you need to cut the expander so you have at least .220" depth of the .358" dia before the radius.  A lathe is best of course but for most this can be done fairly easily on a good grinder with care and a caliper.  A good polish when done and all works well.

Edited by GMP

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9 hours ago, jpm2953 said:

I’m going to order some .357’s and try that. I do like how accurate these bullets are. 

 

JMO - it wouldn't hurt to go straight to .358" with the softer alloy Brazos is using.

 

Lightfoot's explanations are right on. A couple key points to reiterate:

- The ultimate goal with these details is for the bullet to seal the bore and grip the rifling.

- Larger bullet diameters provide more force against the bore to accomplish this.

- Softer lead is more easily sized down by excessive case neck tension. Starting with a larger size helps overcome this.

- If you use a Lee factory crimp die or something similar, your bullets are sized down after loading and this defeats the value of larger bullet diameters. 

- High pressure loads can help seal the bore better than mild pressure. For a minor power load, moving to a faster burn rate powder (like Clays, Bullseye, etc) can help seal the bore better than a slower burn rate powder (like Unique, WSF, etc). 

- Softer bullet alloys require less pressure to seal the bore, but are more susceptible to undersizing from case neck tension. 

 

A useful test for those of you getting some leading and/or poor accuracy - pull some of your loaded bullets and measure the diameter. They may be smaller than you think.

If you're loading with mixed brass, pull some from different brands; you'll find that some brands squeeze soft bullets a bit more than others. This also goes for brass that's been fired a lot and work hardened. 

 

Lightfoot - just a suggestion, since you're using a softer bullet alloy than most, it would be a good idea to default to sending people a larger diameter if they don't specify. In my experience with 9mm cast bullets at 10-14 BHN (either coated or lubed), .356" diameter is too small for a lot of guns, especially when loading with mixed brass. I've found .356" usually works with 18-22 BHN but .358" is generally better at ~12 BHN. The exception of course would be tight chambers. 

 

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So if the crimp die is an issue, what would be a fix.  Would getting a .38 crimp die help, just to take out the bell is all I need

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Use the NOE expander as I noted.  A .38 M die may be too long but I have not checked.  There is no pronounced bell as with a comical flare die.  Setting the 9mm taper crimp die to barely touch the case rim is enough.  My rounds are running .379 -.380 at the rim.  Pull some loaded dummy rounds and verify that your not swaging the bullet down.  The Lee factory crimp die is exactly what you don't want here.  

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15 hours ago, chenault said:

So if the crimp die is an issue, what would be a fix.  Would getting a .38 crimp die help, just to take out the bell is all I need

 

If you're referring to my comments about the Lee factory crimp die - it's not just any crimp die that is a problem, but the Lee FCD specifically, which has a carbide sizer ring (like a sizing die) that sizes the entire case down while applying the crimp. This sizes the bullet down too since it's inside the case, so going to a larger bullet diameter doesn't help if you're using one of those dies. Also, consider the effect of different case neck thicknesses if you're using mixed brass - you end up with different bullet diameters after running the ammo through a Lee FCD.

 

With that said, I have used the FCD with good success with certain barrels and loads, where the pressure curve is right for making the bullet seal the bore anyway. So, you can load good ammo with that die, but it's also a lot more likely to cause issues with any lead bullet load. 

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One thing that is certain to me, re-loading is one thing, shooting is another.  They do intersect, and at that spot, we need to know what to do.  For my personality and goals though, I just want to shoot and get better and better at that.  Learning all the data, equipment, procedures, etc of re-loading is overwhelming.  That's why I love forums and groups that can help.  Like this one!

 

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On 6/19/2019 at 1:31 PM, Lightfoot said:

One thing that is certain to me, re-loading is one thing, shooting is another.  They do intersect, and at that spot, we need to know what to do.  For my personality and goals though, I just want to shoot and get better and better at that.  Learning all the data, equipment, procedures, etc of re-loading is overwhelming.  That's why I love forums and groups that can help.  Like this one!

 

I’m having some trouble getting your 147gr bullets to pass case gauge. I was seating at 1.13-1.14” and had about 15% rejects, when I shortened it to 1.1-1.12” it reduces the amount rejects slightly, but doesn’t get rid of all of them. I’m having good luck with the 125s and only had about 1% not pass. What should I check next to try and solve this. I’m going to be ordering some more bullets soon, and if I’d like to get some 147s but if I can’t figure this out I’ll probably just do more 125s

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Mixed brass?  Are rejects of the same headstamp(s)?  

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15 hours ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I’m having some trouble getting your 147gr bullets to pass case gauge. I was seating at 1.13-1.14” and had about 15% rejects, when I shortened it to 1.1-1.12” it reduces the amount rejects slightly, but doesn’t get rid of all of them. I’m having good luck with the 125s and only had about 1% not pass. What should I check next to try and solve this. I’m going to be ordering some more bullets soon, and if I’d like to get some 147s but if I can’t figure this out I’ll probably just do more 125s

 

Great question.  All I can think of is that you need to chase down where it it interfering.  Mixed brass is a good place to start.  Maybe case length.  I've had inconsistent seating depth issues recently with a die.  Switched to another and no more issues.  We do have 135 grain available if that helps.  I bet someone here knows more than I do on this subject.

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Great question.  All I can think of is that you need to chase down where it it interfering.  Mixed brass is a good place to start.  Maybe case length.  I've had inconsistent seating depth issues recently with a die.  Switched to another and no more issues.  We do have 135 grain available if that helps.  I bet someone here knows more than I do on this subject.

Ok I’ll take a look at case length and go from there. Which die did you switch to that worked better? I’m currently using Lee. I got fantastic accuracy out of the 147s so I’d like to stick with what worked for me, but just want to be wasting a bunch of loaded rounds that didn’t pass gauge for some reason


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8 minutes ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:


Ok I’ll take a look at case length and go from there. Which die did you switch to that worked better? I’m currently using Lee. I got fantastic accuracy out of the 147s so I’d like to stick with what worked for me, but just want to be wasting a bunch of loaded rounds that didn’t pass gauge for some reason


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 I was running an RCBS 45 seating die and getting weird results.  Depths were off, i even had exposed lead through the coating at the crimp area.......but before the crimp!  I kid you not, the brass still looked like a trumpet and yet there was a shiny ring around the front driving band.  I gave up trying to figure it out.  I don't even care at this point.  I bought a Hornady die and changed nothing else and all my problems have gone away.

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10 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

 I was running an RCBS 45 seating die and getting weird results.  Depths were off, i even had exposed lead through the coating at the crimp area.......but before the crimp!  I kid you not, the brass still looked like a trumpet and yet there was a shiny ring around the front driving band.  I gave up trying to figure it out.  I don't even care at this point.  I bought a Hornady die and changed nothing else and all my problems have gone away.

Sounds like a seating stem issue wrong stem for the style of bullet you are using.

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On 6/27/2019 at 8:06 AM, Lightfoot said:

 I was running an RCBS 45 seating die and getting weird results.  Depths were off, i even had exposed lead through the coating at the crimp area.......but before the crimp!  I kid you not, the brass still looked like a trumpet and yet there was a shiny ring around the front driving band.  I gave up trying to figure it out.  I don't even care at this point.  I bought a Hornady die and changed nothing else and all my problems have gone away.

 

I had exactly the same problem with an RCBS seater die in 454 Casull. RCBS sized the inside of the seater die too small, so it removed the case mouth bell before the bullet was seated all the way, causing lead shaving. That is strictly an RCBS problem in my experience, and one example why I don't buy their dies any more. Remember when they came out with their "Cowboy dies" for lead bullets? That was to partly fix this problem, instead of just making their standard dies to more appropriate dimensions like everyone else. 

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On 6/26/2019 at 7:34 PM, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I’m having some trouble getting your 147gr bullets to pass case gauge. I was seating at 1.13-1.14” and had about 15% rejects, when I shortened it to 1.1-1.12” it reduces the amount rejects slightly, but doesn’t get rid of all of them. I’m having good luck with the 125s and only had about 1% not pass. What should I check next to try and solve this. I’m going to be ordering some more bullets soon, and if I’d like to get some 147s but if I can’t figure this out I’ll probably just do more 125s

 

Most likely its the brass.   I'm willing to bet almost all of the rejects are foreign or military brass, wcc, sb, gfl, cbc, etc.    Should have none with quality American commercial brass, blazer, remington, federal, and winchester.   Its a combination of things.   First, the brass is thicker in the middle with these cases.   Second, the 147's are much longer than the 124's.     Combined together, the longer bullet and thicker brass bulge in the middle, making it too thick to case gauge properly.   The worse was when I tried .357 sized 147 bullets with the thicker brass.    The failed ones I save for practice, 99% will run through my glock stock barrels, the 1% make me practice malfunction clearance.   None will run in my shorter chambered Walther.

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Also, make your ammo specs from the rounds that plunk tests your tightest barrels.

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So I finally got some more bullets in and was trying to load some up today and I’m having nothing but problems.

 

Again, I’m using the Hornady LNL, PTX expander set to about .385”, lee seating for, Lee factory crimp die.

 

I’m having problems getting my rounds to case gauge after loading.

 

Every piece of brass was cause gauged before loading, and then loaded rounds were gauged after as well (brass is resized with the die just above the shell plate, but not quite touching it). Preloading all brass passed, but after I’m getting like a 50% fail rate.

 

It looks like the bullet seating is bulging the case at the bottom. 3cf08a2af28ef38d4b7db2389807ba3c.jpg

As you can see in the picture I colored the brass with a black sharpie and inserted it in the gauge multiple times to see where it was making contact, and at the bottom there is a ring that the marker has been rubbed off on.

 

I’m using .357” bullets for the first time since my sample batch I got which went relatively well (15 rejects out of about 250 rounds IIRC)

 

Is there something I’m missing for loading these larger bullets? I wast having these problems with the last batch of .356” 124gr Berry’s I loaded up.

 

Any advise is greatly appreciated.

 

EDIT: seating bullets to 1.13-1.14”

 

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Posted (edited)

I don’t think your troubleshooting is telling you what you think it is, but it also doesn’t sound like you’re following the good advice this thread.

 

for starters, the bullets don’t seat as deeply as those marks, so they aren’t causing that issue. Run your sizer die all the way down hard against the shellholder or try a different die.

 

Looks like the gauge problem is that you’re leaving too much flare on the case mouth, that’s probably causing your case gauge issues. Give it just a little more crimp. But as we said earlier, if it fits the barrel, why worry about fitting the gauge?

 

Also, there’s not much point in using larger diameter .357” bullets if you’re going to size them down again in the Lee FCD. It’s good for jacketed bullets, not for cast. Do yourself a favor and get a different crimp die.

 

 

Edited by Yondering

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I don’t think your troubleshooting is telling you what you think it is, but it also doesn’t sound like you’re following the good advice this thread.
 
for starters, the bullets don’t seat as deeply as those marks, so they aren’t causing that issue. Run your sizer die all the way down hard against the shellholder or try a different die.
 
Looks like the gauge problem is that you’re leaving too much flare on the case mouth, that’s probably causing your case gauge issues. Give it just a little more crimp. But as we said earlier, if it fits the barrel, why worry about fitting the gauge?
 
Also, there’s not much point in using larger diameter .357” bullets if you’re going to size them down again in the Lee FCD. It’s good for jacketed bullets, not for cast. Do yourself a favor and get a different crimp die.
 
 

What do you recommend for a crimp die? Almost everyone suggests the Lee that Iv seen. Also, adding more crimp didn’t help me much in the past. It reduced the problem, but didn’t eliminate it.

But why would the brass gauge before seating the bullet and not after? I’m getting contact there after the bullet is seated, but not before, that’s why I’m confused.

What other dies would you suggest I try? Hornady, RCBS, or Dillon?



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Posted (edited)

As long as it’s a traditional seat/crimp die (I.e. no sizer ring like the FCD) it doesn’t matter too much what brand. Only one I’ve had trouble with was RCBS. Hornady, Dillon, or Lee work fine, just back out or remove the seater stem and use it just for crimping.

 

On those rounds in your pic above, I can see the flare at the case mouth and the sharpie rubbed off there. I think that’s probably your problem. 

 

The other possibility is seating depth with that bullet profile and size. Try some test rounds seated down to 1.00 to verify.

 

Im not convinced that mark you’re seeing is an issue, and it doesn’t make sense for it to bulge there after seating bullets unless you have a wildly compressed powder charge. I’d fix the crimp and make sure the seating depth isn’t an issue first, since those are the most obvious suspects.

Edited by Yondering

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Yonderling is correct, no way is the bullet bulging the case that low.  Your flaring too much.  Reread thread, and consider moving the neck expansion to its own station.  This works excellent for me now with the .358 bullets.  That bullet is very easy to deal with as far as OAL due to the shoulder, no reason to seat it very deep to plunk.  In a CZ I seat to 1.130" and have 100% gauge using the barrel.  No flare, just a two stage expansion with an NOE expander.  Crimp die barely touches case rim.  Finished rounds are .380".  

 

Also, cull your brass of junk.  Odd ball head stamps and some known troublemakers  like CBC.  You will have issues with this brass and larger dia bullets.  

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As long as it’s a traditional seat/crimp die (I.e. no sizer ring like the FCD) it doesn’t matter too much what brand. Only one I’ve had trouble with was RCBS. Hornady, Dillon, or Lee work fine, just back out or remove the seater stem and use it just for crimping.
 
On those rounds in your pic above, I can see the flare at the case mouth and the sharpie rubbed off there. I think that’s probably your problem. 
 
The other possibility is seating depth with that bullet profile and size. Try some test rounds seated down to 1.00 to verify.
 
Im not convinced that mark you’re seeing is an issue, and it doesn’t make sense for it to bulge there after seating bullets unless you have a wildly compressed powder charge. I’d fix the crimp and make sure the seating depth isn’t an issue first, since those are the most obvious suspects.

Yondering, are you using the dies that seat and crimp in the same operation?

I took another look at my dies and I actually have a Lee taper crimp die, not a FCD.

After looking at my Lee die manual, it looks like that die can crimp and seat in the same operation. Should I try to use it that way or get a different crimp die? When I adjust my Lee taper crimp die down further it is shaving off parts of the case at the very top and getting brass shavings everywhere, which I assume is not what is supposed to happen? Did I get a funky die or is it normal for that to happen?

If that’s not normal I was looking at Hornady die set and a Hornady taper crimp die


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