Taking the Plunge - Few Questions/Confirmation Needed

[anonymouscuban]

Moar questions!

 

Got my boolits yesterday. I took a spent casing and one of the truncated cone 147g Blue Bullets. Slipped the bullet into the casing so it was rather long. I then dropped into the barrel (removed from slide). I then slightly pushed it in until it bottomed out. I carefully pulled it out and measured the OAL. I did this several times and I'm ending up with 1.1170 to 1.1175.

 

1. Is my procedure correct?

2. Does this OAL pass the smell test for a CZ 75 SP-01 OEM barrel?

3. Since I came out with a range of measures, do I go with min, max, median or mean?

 

As far as adjusting my resizing die, do I adjust it so the flare is just enough to set the bullet inside so it doesn't fall out if I turn the case over?

 

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[GrumpyOne]

9 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

Moar questions!

 

Got my boolits yesterday. I took a spent casing and one of the truncated cone 147g Blue Bullets. Slipped the bullet into the casing so it was rather long. I then dropped into the barrel (removed from slide). I then slightly pushed it in until it bottomed out. I carefully pulled it out and measured the OAL. I did this several times and I'm ending up with 1.1170 to 1.1175.

 

1. Is my procedure correct?

2. Does this OAL pass the smell test for a CZ 75 SP-01 OEM barrel?

3. Since I came out with a range of measures, do I go with min, max, median or mean?

 

As far as adjusting my resizing die, do I adjust it so the flare is just enough to set the bullet inside so it doesn't fall out if I turn the case over?

 

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That is just one measurement. You also need to see what will fit in your magazines. Your resizing die (you are mistakenly calling your powder die a resizing die) should touch the shell plate with the handle of the press all the way down. And yes, with the powder die, adjust to have just enough flare to have the bullet not fall over.

 

As for your measurements, whatever you come up with from dropping the bullet and case in the barrel, you need to subtract at least .005 from that (I would do a bit more). With your measurement, the bullet is actually resting on the lands of the barrel...if you load to that OAL, you risk having one too long and the gun not going into battery or locking up with a bullet stuck in the lands.

 

While I don't use the blue bullets, with a MG 124 grain JHP, I had to load at 1.085 with my Shadow (bullet hit the lands at 1.095), when I switched to PD 147 FMJ's, I can load out to 1.150. I was using some home cast 147 TC coated, and could also load those to 1.150.

[anonymouscuban]

That is just one measurement. You also need to see what will fit in your magazines. Your resizing die (you are mistakenly calling your powder die a resizing die) should touch the shell plate with the handle of the press all the way down. And yes, with the powder die, adjust to have just enough flare to have the bullet not fall over.  

As for your measurements, whatever you come up with from dropping the bullet and case in the barrel, you need to subtract at least .005 from that (I would do a bit more). With your measurement, the bullet is actually resting on the lands of the barrel...if you load to that OAL, you risk having one too long and the gun not going into battery or locking up with a bullet stuck in the lands.

 

While I don't use the blue bullets, with a MG 124 grain JHP, I had to load at 1.085 with my Shadow (bullet hit the lands at 1.095), when I switched to PD 147 FMJ's, I can load out to 1.150. I was using some home cast 147 TC coated, and could also load those to 1.150.

 

 

Thanks Grumpy. So it sounds like I have to create a couple of dummy rounds in order to test the fit in my magazines.  

 

When testing, am I making sure the round chambers from the mag or is it just that it fits in the magazine? Assume it's the former but want to make sure.

 

And should I test with each magazine or is this one size fits all?

 

Oh... and you're right. I guess it's the powder die that I am talking about.

 

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[GrumpyOne]

Make sure that it chambers from the mag, and generally, testing from one mag is enough

[anonymouscuban]

Ok. Here is what seems like a dumb question to me...

 

Do I need a separate crimp die?

 

I am running the Lee 3 die set. Comes with full length sizing die, powder through expanding die and bullet seating die.

 

I thought that the seating die also crimps the case. Now I'm not so sure.

 

But I am also running the powder cop so with the powder measure, I got all 5 of my holes plugged! Where the heck would I put a factory crimp die?

 

Here is a dummy round I made. It's at an OAL of 1.164. Chambers nicely from my mag and also ejects well. But I don't really notice a crimp. [emoji848]

[GrumpyOne]

Crimping is a misnomer. We don't really crimp rounds for semi autos, we just remove whatever bell/flare that we put in when we did the powder drop.

 

Looking at that round, it appears as though it is already "crimped", and ok.

 

A good rule of thumb for "crimp" is to measure the case wall thickness, multiply that by 2, then add in the diameter of the bullet. So, case wall equals .11 x 2 = .22 + .355 =.377 outside diameter where the bullet meets the case in a completed round.

[GrumpyOne]

Also, take a completed round and, bullet towards the bench or other hard surface, push as hard as you can, to see if the bullet will seat deeper by that force. Dillon dies seem to make the brass look somewhat like a coke bottle, being narrower in the middle, which stops bullet setback (bullet setback is a bad thing). Your round above does not appear that way, so, do the push test.

[anonymouscuban]

Crimping is a misnomer. We don't really crimp rounds for semi autos, we just remove whatever bell/flare that we put in when we did the powder drop.
 
Looking at that round, it appears as though it is already "crimped", and ok.
 
A good rule of thumb for "crimp" is to measure the case wall thickness, multiply that by 2, then add in the diameter of the bullet. So, case wall equals .11 x 2 = .22 + .355 =.377 outside diameter where the bullet meets the case in a completed round.

Ah. Thanks Grump. That make me feel better. For a second there I thought I completely overlooked a step. It's what happens when you spend too much time watching YouTube videos. LoL

OK... so I think I'm ready to make my set of sample for the 124g bullet which is pictured.

I assume I should go through the same process of getting the OAL for the other bullets. The 147g seems to have a slightly different profile so I'm guessing it may seat differently in the barrel.

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[anonymouscuban]

Also, take a completed round and, bullet towards the bench or other hard surface, push as hard as you can, to see if the bullet will seat deeper by that force. Dillon dies seem to make the brass look somewhat like a coke bottle, being narrower in the middle, which stops bullet setback (bullet setback is a bad thing). Your round above does not appear that way, so, do the push test.

Yup... looking at the round from the side in directional light, I can see where the case narrows under the bullet. I can see the outline of the bullet in the case so I can now see how the bullet is squeezed into the case.

I was getting confused earlier because I was expanding cases that I did not run through the resize die. The bullet was just sliding all the way into the case. Now I understand exactly what each die does so everything makes more sense.

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[4n2t0]

Take that dummy round and do this with your barrel:

 

 

The seating die does crimp, here are the instructions that came with your dies and an excerpt:

 

https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol3.pdf

 

"Raise the ram to the top of its stroke and hold.Screw  bullet  seating  die  in  until  it  touches  the  shell  holder,  then  back  it  out  three  full  turns.  Lightly  finger  tighten  the  lock  ring.  Bullet  depth  is  adjusted  by  screwing  the  adjusting  screw  in  or  out  to  suit.  Bullets  should be seated deep enough to work through the gun’s action. See maximum  overall  length  on  charge  table.  If  crimp  is  desired,  screw  die  in  slightly  and  test  until  proper  crimp  is  formed."

 

Here's a video giving you a general idea of how the combo seat/crimp die works:

 

 

As previously mentioned, you don't actually want to apply a crimp, just take out the flare. A pulled bullet should only show a very light (to no) crimp line.

 

Way too much:

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by 4n2t0

[GrumpyOne]

27 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

OK... so I think I'm ready to make my set of sample for the 124g bullet which is pictured.

I assume I should go through the same process of getting the OAL for the other bullets. The 147g seems to have a slightly different profile so I'm guessing it may seat differently in the barrel.

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Yes, same process for different bullets, then set the dies accordingly.

[anonymouscuban]

Again, you guys have helped me a ton. All makes much more sense now. I think I'm ready to make a set of samples in the load ladder (am I using that term correctly?).

What sucks is I don't get my chrono until next Friday so won't be able to test them till then.

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[GrumpyOne]

2 minutes ago, anonymouscuban said:

Again, you guys have helped me a ton. All makes much more sense now. I think I'm ready to make a set of samples in the load ladder (am I using that term correctly?).

What sucks is I don't get my chrono until next Friday so won't be able to test them till then.

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What powder, charge weight, and bullet? 

[anonymouscuban]

What powder, charge weight, and bullet? 

I'm gonna load the 125g Blue Bullet projectile first. Tightgroup and WSP.

Min load @ 3.6
Max load @ 4.0

Watcha guys think?



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[GrumpyOne]

The 3.6 should be pleasant to shoot, If you want to load some up and just plink with them before your chrono gets there. 

 

My load for the Shadow is 3.5 of VV 320 at 1.150 with a PD 147FMJ. Makes right at 134PF.

[anonymouscuban]

The 3.6 should be pleasant to shoot, If you want to load some up and just plink with them before your chrono gets there. 
 
My load for the Shadow is 3.5 of VV 320 at 1.150 with a PD 147FMJ. Makes right at 134PF.

You know, I kind of wanted to do just that so I think I'm gonna load up about 20 rounds at 3.6 and go test them at the range without the chrono on Sunday. I'm gonna hit the range anyway so may as well. 3.6 seems to be the go to load for coated 124/5 gr bullets based on the many posts I've read on the subject.

3.2 for the 147gr. Which brings up something that seems counter intuitive to me. I would think that the heavier bullet needs a bigger powder load to fire it but all the load data I see has this relationship inverse.

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[Swiley383]

On the blue bullets make sure you put plenty of bell on the case. I just started loading those myself in 125 grain so far only a few test loads. They seem very accurate still experimenting with powders.

[anonymouscuban]

On the blue bullets make sure you put plenty of bell on the case. I just started loading those myself in 125 grain so far only a few test loads. They seem very accurate still experimenting with powders.

I'm barely putting any bell in it. Just enough to seat the bullet manually so it doesn't fall out if I shake it. They seem to look OK but I don't have a puller to see what its doing under the case.

 

Well, I loaded my first 20 live rounds. It only took that many to make me realize I may need a better scale. I got the Hornady G2 1500 scale. Tiny thing. Only measures to a tenth of a grain. Not sure if it the scale or my powder drop but measured about 40 drops and they fluctuated between 3.6 and 3.7 with no adjustments to the powder measure. I figure that's the accuracy tolerance of this scale. It's good enough for these plinking rounds.

 

Could it be the powder drop? I would think there should not be that much variance in it.

 

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[Swiley383]

Scale can fluctuate that much. Try some HP38 with those bullets it meters very well but so dose TG. Just not a fan of TG.

[anonymouscuban]

Oh. And after only 20 rounds, I know I want a case feeder! Not coordinated enough to hand feed the case and the bullet, pull the handle and watch the powder cop. Hahaha

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[GrumpyOne]

11 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

3.2 for the 147gr. Which brings up something that seems counter intuitive to me. I would think that the heavier bullet needs a bigger powder load to fire it but all the load data I see has this relationship inverse.

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If you were trying for the same velocity between a 124 and a 147 bullet, you would need more powder with the 147. We, however, are not going for the same velocity, but going for a power factor. 

Take for instance a 124 grain bullet at a velocity of 1,000 feet per second. 124 x 1,000 = 124,000 ÷ 1,000 = 124 PF. Now, take a 147 grain bullet at a velocity of 1,000 feet per second. 147 x 1,000 =147,000 ÷ 1,000= 147 PF. 

 So, if it took x.xx grains of powder with the 124 to make 1,000 FPS to make 124 PF, it will take less powder with the 147 to make the same PF (Since you don't need the 147 to make 1,000 FPS).

[BJB]

12 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

I'm gonna load the 125g Blue Bullet projectile first. Tightgroup and WSP.

Min load @ 3.6
Max load @ 4.0

Watcha guys think?

 

3.6 gr of Titegroup under a 125 gr bullet will shoot just fine but if you're pursuing USPSA you''ll be down around the power factor floor or just over a little via a pistol barrel, depending on the temperature.  Unless you're shooting Level II and Level III matches this might not matter to you, but when you're chrono arrives be sure to check them.  Load some at 3.8 gr Titegroup and compare.  They'll be comfortably above the power factor floor, likely more accurate at distance, and the spent brass will show a cleaner burn.  Mix some of the 3.6 gr & 3.8 gr in a mag and shoot'em.  You likely won't be able to tell a difference, especially on the clock.  When I started reloading I chased the perfect lite load and spent lots of time at the range with different lite loads, bullets, OAL, chrono, accuracy testing, etc.  It was a great learning experience for me but it all culminated in me loading every 9mm, regardless of weight, to around 132 to 135 PF to get the repeatable consistency & accuracy I desired.  All the load data that I initially got from experienced shooters had power factors in the low to mid 130s and that's where I ended up much later too.  That's my two cents, but be sure to run those 3.6 gr loads across your chrono when it arrives.

[BJB]

11 hours ago, anonymouscuban said:

Well, I loaded my first 20 live rounds. It only took that many to make me realize I may need a better scale. I got the Hornady G2 1500 scale. Tiny thing. Only measures to a tenth of a grain. Not sure if it the scale or my powder drop but measured about 40 drops and they fluctuated between 3.6 and 3.7 with no adjustments to the powder measure. I figure that's the accuracy tolerance of this scale. It's good enough for these plinking rounds.

 

Could it be the powder drop? I would think there should not be that much variance in it.

Unless you pay a lot more money, the standard equipment you use in reloading doesn't have the accuracy you might desire to measure these small amounts consistently.  Get your powder drop set and then drop & measure 10 charges and average.  Then do it again.  Get it to where you want it via this method and you should be fine.  Every so often when reloading do this again to check that your powder drop hasn't drifted.  

 

Also, different powders have different consistency as far as powder drops go.  Some are more consistent than others regardless of how accurate your scale is.

[muncie21]

Seems you're on the right track OP. 

 

To verify powder drop, I drop 10 charges into a container and then measure, moving the decimal over mentally.  Do this 3 times and you should be good to go.

[jmtyndall]

 

 

 

 

I'm barely putting any bell in it. Just enough to seat the bullet manually so it doesn't fall out if I shake it. They seem to look OK but I don't have a puller to see what its doing under the case. 

 

One thing at a time. What you're saying sounds right. I look for about 0.020" bell on 9mm with coated bullets. Could probably use a bit less but every now and then I get a case the bullet just doesnt quite sit right on. So I stay with that.

 

 

Well, I loaded my first 20 live rounds. It only took that many to make me realize I may need a better scale. I got the Hornady G2 1500 scale. Tiny thing. Only measures to a tenth of a grain. Not sure if it the scale or my powder drop but measured about 40 drops and they fluctuated between 3.6 and 3.7 with no adjustments to the powder measure. I figure that's the accuracy tolerance of this scale. It's good enough for these plinking rounds.

 

Could it be the powder drop? I would think there should not be that much variance in it.

 

 

 

 

No affordable scales measure to the hundredth of a grain. What you have is sufficient. Everything we do can be assumed to be +/-0.1gr and this it doesnt make a ton of sense to try to determine our precise load by throwing a bunch of charges and then averaging them.

 

Most powder drops throw +/-0.1gr with most powders. The fact that yours only threw 3.6 and 3.7 means you're throwing more precisely than that. So your powder measure is doing fine.

 

Your digital scale effectively rounds your charge weight. That means the 3.6gr will display but the charge weight is actually somewhere between 3.55gr and 3.64gr (see why the sticker says +/-0.1gr?). It will read 3.7gr on the display if the charge is between 3.65gr and 3.74gr. 3.64gr and 3.65gr are incredibly close together yet read 3.6 and 3.7 respectively on the display. 0.01gr of powder is very likely less than 5 tiny kernels. Oh and the load cell performance likely varies with temperature, battery voltage or wall power fluctuations, tiny air currents (these aren't enclosed lab scales), florescent lighting etc. So a known check weight placed on the scale could display different results at different times! A beam scale could be more precise if you're very careful using it, but they are susceptible to being read wrong, the magnetic damping can interfere with the reading a bit and the pivot points need to be clean and razor sharp.

 

All of this explanation to say that what you have is fine. In the beginning it's a bit hard not to hyper focus on being ultra precise. The instruments we have just aren't capable of being that precise with certainty.

 

If you want to be very consistent when working up loads for the chrono we can talk about trickling powder to try and eek some extra precision out of the scale.