Most important factors for accuracy - 9MM

[AHI]

Ok, so the only factor I can control is the bullet. So another question : will the same speed give the same result, no matter what powder was used? That's what I was told, and I'm not sure that's right, but I haven't got enough information to disprove it. I think that different accelerations will make the bullet travel in different ways even if the fps were the same at one point. 

 1-   different accelerations will have an affect on performance   slower powders tend to work better in 9mm fast powders tend to work better in 45acp for example 

Compared to any other factor, how much would you rate "seating the bullet straight" from 1 to 10? I didn't give too much attention to that, and I want to make sure next time I pay enough attention.

 2-    so important that the Bullseye shooters have special seaters made 

Also, can differences be noticeable when shooting still, with no sandbags/rest, etc...? I read a lot about 2 inches groups at 50 yards but I guess they're made using sandbags/rests

  3-   a Ransom rest is used for testing   sand bags will introduce issues.

[superdude]

With respect to seating the bullet straight, it might be important for a bullseye gun, but it didn't appear to have any effect with the gun used in this article:

 

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/exclusive-crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

[Steve RA]

I would guess that most good groups at 50yds are from a Ransom Rest.

[Yondering]

16 hours ago, xdf3 said:

 

Ok, so the only factor I can control is the bullet. So another question : will the same speed give the same result, no matter what powder was used? That's what I was told, and I'm not sure that's right, but I haven't got enough information to disprove it. I think that different accelerations will make the bullet travel in different ways even if the fps were the same at one point. 

 

Compared to any other factor, how much would you rate "seating the bullet straight" from 1 to 10? I didn't give too much attention to that, and I want to make sure next time I pay enough attention.

 

Also, can differences be noticeable when shooting still, with no sandbags/rest, etc...? I read a lot about 2 inches groups at 50 yards but I guess they're made using sandbags/rests

 

The same resulting velocity does not give the same accuracy result with different powders. Changing powders and working back up to the same velocity can change accuracy quite a bit. 

 

Seating the bullet straight is important and good practice, but in pistols for most shooters it has a relatively small impact. It starts to matter more when you're wringing that last little bit of accuracy out of the load, maybe taking a 2.5" group down to 2" as an example. 

 

Your last question definitely depends on the shooter's capabilities, but most reasonably good shooters should be able to tell the difference offhand between good and bad loads. If you're trying to work that 2.5" group down to 2" you probably want to test with a good rest, but you should be able to tell the difference between a 6" group and a 3" group offhand. (And yes - it's easy to find loads that shoot a lot worse than that.) If you're a good shot, you should be able to do most of your accuracy testing offhand. If you're not, maybe have a better shooter test for you or spend the time improving your accuracy before worrying about the ammo. 

[Yondering]

12 hours ago, AHI said:

   slower powders tend to work better in 9mm fast powders tend to work better in 45acp for example 

 

 

You keep saying stuff like this, but it's not an accurate generalization. Maybe you're only using some specific loads in each cartridge where that is true, but overall it is wrong.

Fast powders like Clays, Titegroup, and Bullseye can give excellent accuracy in mild loads for both 9mm and .45.

Slower powders like AA7, Silhouette, and Blue Dot can work really well in +P loads for both 9mm and .45. 

In factory-equivalent loads with either cartridge, the medium rate powders like Universal often give best accuracy.

 

You can't just generalize this stuff into statements like "slower powders are more accurate" or "slow for 9mm and fast for 45". Those generalizations are wrong too often to be of any value. 

[AHI]

re read all of my statements you will find I said that I have  50yard 9mm NRA "Bullseye  x ring 10 shot groups 

with bullseye powder     wsf powder  N330 and AA#7  

[stardust tommy]

I train some new PPC shooters, a good tip is to start with a load that is known for acuracy and don't try to invent the wheel again. new shooters think it is the gun, the ammo and invest to much time on testing ammo to find out that cheap components and fast powders ( to load as much and as cheap as possible) will not work for accuracy.

 

the info is al online, search on the WWW for Bob Marvel, Joe Chambers, David sams, top shooters like Thomas Svenson... and you see it is all about Powder pistol, N330, federal, and good JHP bullets (hap, xtp), and for 50yards new or x reloaded brass...

 

 

[xdf3]

7 hours ago, AHI said:

re read all of my statements you will find I said that I have  50yard 9mm NRA "Bullseye  x ring 10 shot groups 

with bullseye powder     wsf powder  N330 and AA#7  

What was the load you were using with N330? 

 

There's a lot of information out there, I'm trying to learn as much as possible. It will take some time to judge (I hope I'll find out some conclusions in less than 6 months)

[xdf3]

4 hours ago, stardust tommy said:

I train some new PPC shooters, a good tip is to start with a load that is known for acuracy and don't try to invent the wheel again. new shooters think it is the gun, the ammo and invest to much time on testing ammo to find out that cheap components and fast powders ( to load as much and as cheap as possible) will not work for accuracy.

 

the info is al online, search on the WWW for Bob Marvel, Joe Chambers, David sams, top shooters like Thomas Svenson... and you see it is all about Powder pistol, N330, federal, and good JHP bullets (hap, xtp), and for 50yards new or x reloaded brass...

 

 

That's what I thought, there's no need to spend years spending time and resources for bad reloads.

 

Actually, until now, that is what I was doing, and it worked pretty well for IPSC, but I was never sure what was wrong with the results at 20+ yards. I'm not sure where to find accurate shooters (to ask them to shoot with my gun/ammo), and it's really hard to find a good rest.

 

I actually notice when I'm using a very very bad load. Last 2 times, one was due to the bullet, and it was clear at 10 yards. The hits would be spread everywhere.

Another reload, I tried using BP01, 3.8 grains (the minimum for lead), and I couldn't hit poppers / plates at 10 yards. It has the same burning rate of Clays and N320.

I went back to the usual reload and hits were perfect (for that distance). I'm using a kinda-fast powder at the moment, it's called Frex Green, which is almost identical to LOVEX D032 which has the same burning rate of Titegroup. I need to use 4.3 grains in summer and 4.0 grains in colder seasons (roughly - and no, I didn't mistype summer. It works better in colder seasons). 

I kinda feel like the powder is not good enough for accuracy, and the bullets are not top quality, just used by the most shooters here (and what is used by the most is not always the best).

 

[AHI]

2 hours ago, xdf3 said:

What was the load you were using with N330? 

 

There's a lot of information out there, I'm trying to learn as much as possible. It will take some time to judge (I hope I'll find out some conclusions in less than 6 months)

N330 has a wide "accuracy node from 3.2 to4.2 gr with 147gr bullets I split the difference and loaded 3.7 ( this node ) works with jacked or flat nosed lead.

FYI AA#7 ( same powder as shooters world major pistol/but made in a different factory) 147gr 5.0.

Edited August 6, 2019 by AHI

[xdf3]

13 minutes ago, AHI said:

N330 has a wide "accuracy node from 3.2 to4.2 gr with 147gr bullets I split the difference and loaded 3.7 ( this node ) works with jacked or flat nosed lead.

FYI AA#7 ( same powder as shooters world major pistol/but made in a different factory) 147gr 5.0.

Do you think a similar burning rate powder could work in a similar way? I don't expect the same results, just similar. N330 costs about 50€ / 0.5kg here, which is a lot. It's like 60$/lb. Some years ago it was priced about 20€ / kg (consider about 10$ / Lb). An example would be Maxam CSB1 or CSB1M. 

 

I'm curious about 147gr bullets. Do you think they are more accurate than 115/124 gr in general?

 

I've read that Cz Shadow2 works better with 115gr and 147gr. 

 

Would you pick .356" jacked and .357" lead/copper plated/color coated to maintain accuracy? With a .3555" barrel.

Still trying to find what's good and what's not, based on experiences.

 

All of this is extremely interesting. 

[AHI]

how about D037-01 (lovex)    What twist rate is your barrel? This will have the most effect on what weight bullet you can shoot.

Would not use a plated bullet if looking for accuracy past 20 yards. Plain lead or color coated (quality) would have to be weighed and segregated 

for 50 yard accuracy.Have gotten some of my best and most consistent groups with Lead/coated. Recently tested some jacked bullets that were

junck so no all jacked bullets are worth the price.    Now as to weight hevey bullets tend to shoot more accurate than lighter bullets but the weight 

is not the only reason. This is hard to explain The RPM (how fast the bullet spins)has more effect on how the bullet preforms than it seams.Any defect

/void /light spot  will destabilize the bullet in flight.This is why  hallow point bullets tend to be more accurate the bullet is balanced better so to speak at RPM.

and 147s tend to be more accurate . When you are working up a accurate load you are actually matching up the RPM of the bullet  to your twist rate.

Told you it was hard to explain.

 

[xdf3]

1 hour ago, AHI said:

how about D037-01 (lovex)    What twist rate is your barrel? This will have the most effect on what weight bullet you can shoot.

Would not use a plated bullet if looking for accuracy past 20 yards. Plain lead or color coated (quality) would have to be weighed and segregated 

for 50 yard accuracy.Have gotten some of my best and most consistent groups with Lead/coated. Recently tested some jacked bullets that were

junck so no all jacked bullets are worth the price.    Now as to weight hevey bullets tend to shoot more accurate than lighter bullets but the weight 

is not the only reason. This is hard to explain The RPM (how fast the bullet spins)has more effect on how the bullet preforms than it seams.Any defect

/void /light spot  will destabilize the bullet in flight.This is why  hallow point bullets tend to be more accurate the bullet is balanced better so to speak at RPM.

and 147s tend to be more accurate . When you are working up a accurate load you are actually matching up the RPM of the bullet  to your twist rate.

Told you it was hard to explain.

 

I've read it is 1 in 10

Lovex here is hard to find at the moment, and I don't know if there's a FRex (Fiocchi) powder that is equal to that one ( I think there's not ).

 

Just curious, I can read it almost everywhere, but I can't find a reason about plated bullets. Does it depend on the quality? I've heard Frontier CMJ bullets are high quality and they work really well, but that's what average shooters say. 

 

Would you use .357 lead/coated on a .3555" barrel? Or does it depend on the quality again?

 

If you had to choose, is it always better to use a bullet with bigger diameter between two?

 

Is there a range of RPM for every bullet, or just a range for every barrel, and any bullet will have different RPM's depending on the charge?

[AHI]

5 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I've read it is 1 in 10

Lovex here is hard to find at the moment, and I don't know if there's a FRex (Fiocchi) powder that is equal to that one ( I think there's not ).

 

Just curious, I can read it almost everywhere, but I can't find a reason about plated bullets. Does it depend on the quality? I've heard Frontier CMJ bullets are high quality and they work really well, but that's what average shooters say. 

 

Would you use .357 lead/coated on a .3555" barrel? Or does it depend on the quality again?

 

If you had to choose, is it always better to use a bullet with bigger diameter between two?

 

Is there a range of RPM for every bullet, or just a range for every barrel, and any bullet will have different RPM's depending on the charge?

First  1 in 10 twist is going to favor the heaver bullets (147) you may get acceptable results with 124/125s but usually not 115 or lighter.

next plated bullets are ezley damaged during seating and crimping(removing flair)and I dont know of any one who has had good results past 50 yards.

Size    .356 to.357  and yes one of the reasons Hornady Hap shoot so well is the are slightly oversize.

yes

We cotrole RPM with velosity that is why most 9mm s ar mor accurate in the 140 power factor range .

Bullet quality is #1

With all that said you are shooting IPSC most of your shots are under 20 yards you dont need 50 yard ammo IE dont over thanck it 

dont stress out over trying to make 50yard ammo.

[Yondering]

8 hours ago, AHI said:

When you are working up a accurate load you are actually matching up the RPM of the bullet  to your twist rate.

 

 

If that were true, there would be one specific velocity that shot best for a given bullet and barrel, but there is not. It would also mean that a 1:16 twist would need a much faster load for accuracy than a 1:10 with a given bullet, but that doesn't play out either. 

 

I agree with your comments about balance of the bullet being important and hollow points generally balancing better, but in my experience accuracy is more about getting the bullet started down the barrel straight and centered than about matching velocity to twist rate. Finding the right combinations of powder charge & burn characteristics, seating depth, and fit of the bullet to the throat are the main influences on that. 

 

As an example, one of my most accurate bullets is a 105gr hollow point of my own design that I cast and powder coat. For a mild load, that bullet over 3.2gr of Clays for ~1,000-1,050 fps is very accurate in both 1:10 and 1:16 9mm Glock barrels (both stock and aftermarket). However, the same bullet is equally accurate in the same barrels when pushed hard with 7.7gr of Silhouette at ~1,450 fps. Of all the factors that affect accuracy in those loads, barrel twist rate is way down the list. Seating depth, bullet diameter, and lead hardness all have a bigger impact. 

 

An interesting segue to that 105gr hollow point above is another exceptionally accurate bullet that demonstrated for me that bullet shape plays a big part in accuracy. This one is a very short bullet with a large flat point and weighs 100gr; it's very similar in profile to the 105gr bullet if the hollow point section were cut off. It's interesting to see that both of these bullets are most accurate with similar powder charges and similar jump to the rifling lands, despite one being a hollow point and one being solid. 

Also for comparison is a 100gr plated bullet I tried out recently (the Xtreme 100gr 380), which is similar to my 100gr RF but with a smaller flat point - unfortunately that one didn't shoot nearly as well with any load, mild or hot. (I didn't expect the plated bullet to do well with hot loads of course.) 

 

[AHI]

1 hour ago, Yondering said:

 

If that were true, there would be one specific velocity that shot best for a given bullet and barrel, but there is not. It would also mean that a 1:16 twist would need a much faster load for accuracy than a 1:10 with a given bullet, but that doesn't play out either. 

 

I agree with your comments about balance of the bullet being important and hollow points generally balancing better, but in my experience accuracy is more about getting the bullet started down the barrel straight and centered than about matching velocity to twist rate. Finding the right combinations of powder charge & burn characteristics, seating depth, and fit of the bullet to the throat are the main influences on that. 

 

As an example, one of my most accurate bullets is a 105gr hollow point of my own design that I cast and powder coat. For a mild load, that bullet over 3.2gr of Clays for ~1,000-1,050 fps is very accurate in both 1:10 and 1:16 9mm Glock barrels (both stock and aftermarket). However, the same bullet is equally accurate in the same barrels when pushed hard with 7.7gr of Silhouette at ~1,450 fps. Of all the factors that affect accuracy in those loads, barrel twist rate is way down the list. Seating depth, bullet diameter, and lead hardness all have a bigger impact. 

 

An interesting segue to that 105gr hollow point above is another exceptionally accurate bullet that demonstrated for me that bullet shape plays a big part in accuracy. This one is a very short bullet with a large flat point and weighs 100gr; it's very similar in profile to the 105gr bullet if the hollow point section were cut off. It's interesting to see that both of these bullets are most accurate with similar powder charges and similar jump to the rifling lands, despite one being a hollow point and one being solid. 

Also for comparison is a 100gr plated bullet I tried out recently (the Xtreme 100gr 380), which is similar to my 100gr RF but with a smaller flat point - unfortunately that one didn't shoot nearly as well with any load, mild or hot. (I didn't expect the plated bullet to do well with hot loads of course.) 

 

ok then why did the AMU go to a 1 in 32 twist?

[Yondering]

Probably because the slowest twist rate to fully stabilize a given bullet is often slightly more accurate. But that doesn't correlate with what you said; a faster twist does NOT mean the gun will be more accurate with 147gr. All of the common 9mm pistol twist rates are adequate for much heavier bullets than 147gr, and effects of the bullet, load, and other details are much more significant than the twist rate. 

[AHI]

We went to a 1/32 twist because the 115/125 gr bullets we were required to use were destabilizing 

be cause of gyroscopic issues (spinning to fast) by doing this our gunsmiths could build 50 guns that 

used the same ammo instead of each having its individual own load.All of my statement are correct .

I  prophesy used the word tend because you can acheave the same results with powders in a wide 

range of burn rates fast or slow. I will not be posting in this thread or arguing with you on this any more 

but you dont understand twist rate and effect in has on 50 yard /meters ammo.I would agree you wont 

see a difference at less than 25 yards/meters. 1 in 18 is actually the current preferred rate for 147s. Notice 

I said current    that may change at any time.

                                                                                                                                          AHI

Edited August 9, 2019 by AHI

[DougCarden]

AHI, thanks for sharing your experience and please continue to share.  Post the info and let the chips fall where they may.  All of this is a continual learning curve for ALL of us and having access to your information is important...

 

PS......My 1x32 Schumann 9x19 barrel shot both 115jhp and 147s extremely well at long distance......;0)

 

DougC

[Yondering]

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from sharing either; I would just hate to see the OP get sent down a rabbit trail of chasing relatively minor effects like twist rate and neglecting more important factors. 

 

And regarding distance - I'm not the one who said 25 yards, although that may be most relevant for the OP. I routinely practice at 50 and 100 yards whenever I can, and my comments are not just based on close range shooting. 

[lll Otto lll]

On 8/1/2019 at 10:26 AM, AHI said:

N330 was not imported for over 8 years. N330 was the original powder used for accuracy loads by Atlanta Arms(they loaded ammo for the AMU)

I have xring accurate loads with Bullseye ,WSF,AA#7,    it all about tuning the load to the bullet and gun.It is ez to develop a load with JHP bullets.

 

So if tuning to the gun is important (and I agree it is), how does Atlanta develop accurate ammo without knowing which guns it's intended for?

[xdf3]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:01 PM, AHI said:

We went to a 1/32 twist because the 115/125 gr bullets we were required to use were destabilizing 

be cause of gyroscopic issues (spinning to fast) by doing this our gunsmiths could build 50 guns that 

used the same ammo instead of each having its individual own load.All of my statement are correct .

I  prophesy used the word tend because you can acheave the same results with powders in a wide 

range of burn rates fast or slow. I will not be posting in this thread or arguing with you on this any more 

but you dont understand twist rate and effect in has on 50 yard /meters ammo.I would agree you wont 

see a difference at less than 25 yards/meters. 1 in 16 is actually the current preferred rate for 147s. Notice 

I said current    that may change at any time.

                                                                                                                                          AHI

 

I tried to search for that kind of information, and I didn't find anything useful yet. I mean, I didn't read "too high RPM makes the bullet lose accuracy", I've just found the opposite (about SG value). So if the bullet can't be stabilized, it will lose accuracy.

I'd be curious to find the opposite statement so I could tell which speed (or bullet length/weight) to avoid. Any way to tell when it's too much?

[AHI]

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Webfile_Barrel-Twist-Rate.pdf

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&oq=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.27560j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[xdf3]

2 hours ago, AHI said:

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Webfile_Barrel-Twist-Rate.pdf

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&oq=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.27560j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I can't see the first one and the second one is just what I googled before, I didn't find any new answer / explaination about RPM's, barrel twist, etc... No research about bullets losing accuracy by going too fast yet (I'd like to find one)

[AHI]

http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Webfile_Barrel-Twist-Rate.pdf

takes a bit to open is 4 pages long.

https://www.google.com/search?q=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&oq=twist+rates+for+9mm+pistol&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.27560j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

4th one down