Most important factors for accuracy - 9MM

[zzt]

I'm not going to pass on any loads, but I will mention somethings that years of testing taught me.

 

Consistency in everything is the key.  Good quality bullets that all weigh the same.  Same head stamp brass all fired the same number of times.  Powder that meters really well.  Don't trust a single decimal place scale.  You can get single digit SDs with one, but you won't know how inconsistent unless you buy an accurate scale the weighs down to 1/100 grain.

 

Operating your loading press consistently is key.  When I have something that alters the consistent, smooth flow, everything in the shell holder goes automatically into the practice bin.

 

Ladder test your loads.  I have found several loads that vary is SD and accuracy when you go up and down the velocity range.  For example, a 200gr LSWC (Dardas) at 726fps is the most accurate in one of my 1911 45s.  Moving up a bit increases SDs and opens the group.  Going a little hotter shrinks everything again, etc.  This has happened with several powders.

Primers do make a difference.  Some powders prefer one primer over the other.  For instance, in my testing N310 and e3 prefer CCI primers.  Solo 1000 and Clay Dot like Winchester primers.

[phecksel]

I'm a casual loader, participate in a couple of IDPA's and PPC, nothing super competitive.

 

Was shooting for min IDPA PF, but this thread is indicating I need to bump my powder.  Was loading 9mm 125 HAP, with 4.0 of HP38 (have a lot of that).  It seemed like the accuracy wasn't there, so I started using 124 Berry thick plate.  Accuracy seemed to improve, and in fact it boosted me into a higher PPC category where it's starting to get competitive.

 

Generally, how much faster should I be looking to achieving?

[iflyskyhigh]

There is a point of diminishing returns.

 

Meaning you can spend your time in search of that “perfect” load...or you can load a very good load and go shoot.

 

I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong. Just something to think about.

 

The pistol, in most cases, especially in USPSA/IDPA, and even dare I say real world defensive/offensive situations doesn’t require, and is not capable of pin point accuracy.

 

There are a butt load of tried and true loads plastered across the interweb. Grab one and run with it. Might not hurt to try and tweak it a little. That is why we handload after all. Just don’t end up chasing your tail.

 

And I know it’s been said before, but MOST 9MM loads do tend to shoot better some where in the 135ish PF range.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

[Vmax606]

I do not shoot 9mm, but this is what I know.

 

From many Bullseye shooters :  115 gr HAP or Zero bullets and 6gr of Power Pistol.

This is what Wilson Combat uses to test their guns : 125 gr JHP (forgot the brand) and 5.2gr of Power Pistol.

 

I guess you can try both and see which bullet weight your gun prefers.

.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Vmax606

[stardust tommy]

loads from bullseye/PPC/BIANCHI shooters for 50y accuracy

 

115gr XTP/HAP 6.1gr Power Pistol

115gr XTP/HAP 5gr N330

 

115gr +- 1050 FT/Sec

124 +- 1020 ft/sec

147gr +- 900ft/sec

 

new or 1x reloaded brass (same stamp), Federal gold primer, no crimp

 

atlanta arms, Stan Chen factory ammo

federal hydrashock 147gr factory

 

these are accuracy loads, not the best for IPSC, IDPA, USPSA...

[phecksel]

On 5/13/2019 at 9:18 PM, iflyskyhigh said:

There is a point of diminishing returns.

 

Meaning you can spend your time in search of that “perfect” load...or you can load a very good load and go shoot.

 

I was playing around with 223 loads, heading towards spending a lot of time at range to perfect the load... What am I doing, 223 is a fun firearm, I don't compete with it, will never do long range, hell I can't see 200 yds, much less shoot 600

 

But if, my firearm "should" do better with 135 PF, that's an easy fix.  I'll load it and test it.

[zander1555]

I would agree with others here - higher PF loads usually lead to higher accuracy. It seems like this is especially the case with FP/TC bullets, but I think it really applies to any bullet profile.

[xdf3]

Do you think you can have an acceptable result at 30-40 yards with typical RN hard cast bullets? 

[Hi-Power Jack]

You should be able to, if the RN bullets are top quality, and you tailor the load

for that bullet and your gun.

 

But, there might be some hard cast bullets which are NOT up to the task.

[xdf3]

As a rule of thumb, slow burning rate powders work better?

Higher velocity ( -> so 115 grains bullets ), less deviation?

 

JHP being the best shape possible? 

 

Any difference between RN and TC? Let's suppose the shot would be at 35+ yards, since 25 might be a bit too low

[superdude]

Generally speaking, flat nose bullets tend to produce better accuracy than round nose bullets in our handguns. But, it depends on the bullet and the powder combo, so we can't generalize too much. In the end, individual loads have to be tested to see what the gun likes.

 

A flat nose versus round nose accuracy comparison can be found at the link below.

 

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/1/18/38-different-9mm-loads

[DougCarden]

Loads of good info here......

I used to sell 50 yard accuracy ammo for competition.....A buddy won a world title in Germany with it. I still use the same loads in 9mm and 38 Super in Bianchi Cup matches.

Here are some necessary things for accuracy.  Consistency.  Period.  It has to be repeatable for consistent accuracy.

In the 9mm a medium powder is best for accuracy due to it's small case capacity.  Most Bullseye loads and the like are set up short, around 1.075 -1.080.  Other loads shoot well at 1.110-1.120.  

Here is a couple loads for example.  

Match load using once fired same headstamp cases /rollsized.  115jhp Zero conical/Sierra 115 jhp.  OAL 1.110 OAL  Crimp set at .377.  4.8-5.0gr VV 330/340, Titegroup.  Federal Gold match primers.  Your best accuracy with 115s are around 1150-1180 fps.  The Fed match primers will get you an increase of 17-22 percent smaller groups as they are the most consistent primers available.

For cheaper practice I use a Two Alpha 122 conical flat nose coated lead bullet sized .357 loaded to 1.030 OAL with 3.5-3.7gr TG.  It shoots the same POI at 50 yards as my above JHP load except I push the rear sight to the right two clicks.  I got pretty luck with that combo.  

For Super.Supercomp we bump up the 9mm powder charge .02 grains to start and see what your gun likes.  VV 320 and WST are the most used powders in Super for 50 yard accuracy.  

 

A friend bracketed loads for his 9mm open gun and settled at 4.2gr TG in that particular gun/barrel whereas I have seen best accuracy in my gun at 4.5gr TG.  The nice thing about handloading is that you can customize the load to your gun/barrel combo.  It is really satisfying when you find the load.

 

Where did I learn all of this stuff?   I learned a lot from reading posts like this on this forum years ago, doing more research on the Net, and talking to anyone that knew more than I did about loading and competing.  

Hope this helps,

DougC

 

[superdude]

Consistency is good but it doesn't always predict what will be more accurate. It generally comes down to particular bullet and powder combinations.

 

When put to the test, there was no positive correlation between velocity standard deviation and group size in a typical handgun at typical handgun distances, i.e. smaller standard deviations did not mean smaller groups.

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

 

It might be important with highly tuned match guns. 

[DougCarden]

 I just read the American handgun article. From my testing I knew that the Zero Bullets would shoot better at terminal distance than the Nosler.

The make up of the bullet makes a big difference. I know that for a 50 yard accuracy load zero or sierra pistol bullets will give the best accuracy once you get the load dialed in.  

For example using the same load and substituting Montana gold 115 JHP I get the same accuracy up to 35 yards and then the group opens up from an inch and a half to roughly 3 1/2 inches at 50 yards.  I am not knocking Montana gold, They are good bullets but not as accurate as the others

My current 38 super Load has an SD 12 and I can still shoot a 6 shot group of an inch and a half at 50 yards.  You can drive yourself nuts worrying about the numbers.    If the load shoots it shoots. 

[xdf3]

On 7/24/2019 at 7:32 PM, DougCarden said:

Loads of good info here......

I used to sell 50 yard accuracy ammo for competition.....A buddy won a world title in Germany with it. I still use the same loads in 9mm and 38 Super in Bianchi Cup matches.

Here are some necessary things for accuracy.  Consistency.  Period.  It has to be repeatable for consistent accuracy.

In the 9mm a medium powder is best for accuracy due to it's small case capacity.  Most Bullseye loads and the like are set up short, around 1.075 -1.080.  Other loads shoot well at 1.110-1.120.  

Here is a couple loads for example.  

Match load using once fired same headstamp cases /rollsized.  115jhp Zero conical/Sierra 115 jhp.  OAL 1.110 OAL  Crimp set at .377.  4.8-5.0gr VV 330/340, Titegroup.  Federal Gold match primers.  Your best accuracy with 115s are around 1150-1180 fps.  The Fed match primers will get you an increase of 17-22 percent smaller groups as they are the most consistent primers available.

For cheaper practice I use a Two Alpha 122 conical flat nose coated lead bullet sized .357 loaded to 1.030 OAL with 3.5-3.7gr TG.  It shoots the same POI at 50 yards as my above JHP load except I push the rear sight to the right two clicks.  I got pretty luck with that combo.  

For Super.Supercomp we bump up the 9mm powder charge .02 grains to start and see what your gun likes.  VV 320 and WST are the most used powders in Super for 50 yard accuracy.  

 

A friend bracketed loads for his 9mm open gun and settled at 4.2gr TG in that particular gun/barrel whereas I have seen best accuracy in my gun at 4.5gr TG.  The nice thing about handloading is that you can customize the load to your gun/barrel combo.  It is really satisfying when you find the load.

 

Where did I learn all of this stuff?   I learned a lot from reading posts like this on this forum years ago, doing more research on the Net, and talking to anyone that knew more than I did about loading and competing.  

Hope this helps,

DougC

 

It does help, and I'd like to know a bit more. Is JHP needed to have the best accuracy? They cost 3 times the typical FMJ bullets. 55€ / 1000 for color coated bullets (it should be a good quality), 80€ / 1000 for FMJ's or CMJ Frontier, and about 240€ / 1000 for JHP / XTP, which is literally too much, and I would never spend that much. 

 

Reading here and there, it seems that a .357 color coated bullet might be good for accuracy. FP (Flat point == flat nose?) or TC > RN, right? It's hard to find other shapes.

 

Would powders with similar burning rates work well, or they might change a lot? Like Maxam CSB1 and CSB2 for training and VV 330 / 340 for competitions.

 

So, some good things to do, no matter what load it will be : 

 

least crimp possible

consistency (bullet/powder weight, primers)

 

Will powders with slow burning rate generally work better than ones with faster burning rates?

 

Thanks

 

[Yondering]

14 hours ago, xdf3 said:

 

Will powders with slow burning rate generally work better than ones with faster burning rates?

 

 

No, not really. What works best is to match burn rate to the load, using fast burn rates for mild loads and slower burn rates for hotter loads. 

 

For example, a mild load I use a bunch is a 125gr coated bullet over 2.8 gr of Clays (very fast burn rate) for about 900 fps. Accuracy is excellent for that load with Clays, better than I can achieve with medium rate powders like Unique, Universal, WSF, etc. However, if I push that load hotter into about the range of factory ammo, Clays is no longer the best choice and something like Universal gives better accuracy. 

[xdf3]

10 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

No, not really. What works best is to match burn rate to the load, using fast burn rates for mild loads and slower burn rates for hotter loads. 

 

For example, a mild load I use a bunch is a 125gr coated bullet over 2.8 gr of Clays (very fast burn rate) for about 900 fps. Accuracy is excellent for that load with Clays, better than I can achieve with medium rate powders like Unique, Universal, WSF, etc. However, if I push that load hotter into about the range of factory ammo, Clays is no longer the best choice and something like Universal gives better accuracy. 

 

So a typical combination would be heavier bullets -> fast burn rate / lighter bullets -> slow burn rate. 

 

So what would make N340 one of the most used for bullseye competitions? N320 is too fast? N330 too average? (I see it's used, but not as much, maybe)

[AHI]

N330 was not imported for over 8 years. N330 was the original powder used for accuracy loads by Atlanta Arms(they loaded ammo for the AMU)

I have xring accurate loads with Bullseye ,WSF,AA#7,    it all about tuning the load to the bullet and gun.It is ez to develop a load with JHP bullets.

Flat nose bullets (cast) appear more accurate than round nose.Has a lot to do with how it "cuts" a hole in the target.Cast bullets will need to be weighed

to eliminate light and overly heavy ones that will open up the groups.Lastly it takes a special built gun to shoot consistent sub one inch groups at 50 yards.

So what are you after?

[Yondering]

9 hours ago, xdf3 said:

 

So a typical combination would be heavier bullets -> fast burn rate / lighter bullets -> slow burn rate. 

 

 

No, that's backwards if we're talking about full power loads near max; typically heavier bullets require a slightly slower burn rate to achieve best performance.

 

With mild target loads that still applies to some degree but is less important than matching the burn rate to the load intensity. 

 

Maybe you're looking at the tendency for competition loads to use 147gr bullets with fast powder for minor loads and 125gr bullets with slower powder for major, but if so that's confusing load intensity with bullet weight. The faster powders are generally used for minor loads because they are mild relative to typical 9mm potential, NOT because they are using heavy bullets. 

[Steve RA]

I have good groups with my 9mm using only win cases, 3.2 gr of Australian Clays, Tula SRMP and 130gr LSWC's.  Slightly over an inch @ 25 yds with a 5 shot group (off a rest, of course).  Not quite as good as my .45 groups but still getting closer.

[xdf3]

18 hours ago, Steve RA said:

I have good groups with my 9mm using only win cases, 3.2 gr of Australian Clays, Tula SRMP and 130gr LSWC's.  Slightly over an inch @ 25 yds with a 5 shot group (off a rest, of course).  Not quite as good as my .45 groups but still getting closer.

 

Is there a reason why there are a lot of bullseye loads with powders like N330 / N340 and over 5 grains? I still can't understand what makes a really good cartridge, except for the bullet.

[AHI]

because someone told someone who told some one replete.

so it must be.

Slow powders fill the case better tear fore more uniform loads are acheaved in more different guns.

Again what are you trying to do? There are loads that work in allot of different guns then there are

loads that work in your gun . may be time for you to spend some time hear

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/f13-ammunition-discussion    may be they can answer your question.

[Yondering]

8 hours ago, xdf3 said:

 

I still can't understand what makes a really good cartridge, except for the bullet.

 

To be clear, the bullet is the most important part of the cartridge for accuracy in my experience. (Remember the 3 B's for accuracy - Bullets, Barrel, and Bedding, in our case "bedding" is barrel fit/lockup.) Other things matter somewhat, but those three are the most important to get right. 

 

There are general rules of thumb for powders, like the burn rate stuff we've discussed above, but when it comes down to it, accuracy is primarily about using a good bullet, then seating it straight, and then finding a powder that burns consistently and develops the right pressure curve for the load you want. Other details like neck tension, crimp, and primer choice also play a part but are generally farther down the list of importance. Ideally, you'll find a load with a good bullet that is not very sensitive to small changes in the other variables; that's how you get a good load that works well year round and with mixed brass, rather than a finicky load that works really well in specific conditions but falls apart when something changes. 

 

I'm not a bullseye shooter and don't use N330 or 340, so I haven't tried to answer that question specifically, but hopefully my comments above help. 

[xdf3]

On 8/2/2019 at 6:03 PM, AHI said:

because someone told someone who told some one replete.

so it must be.

Slow powders fill the case better tear fore more uniform loads are acheaved in more different guns.

Again what are you trying to do? There are loads that work in allot of different guns then there are

loads that work in your gun . may be time for you to spend some time hear

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/f13-ammunition-discussion    may be they can answer your question.

Thank you. I'm curious about some other opinions. 

[xdf3]

On 8/3/2019 at 12:51 AM, Yondering said:

 

To be clear, the bullet is the most important part of the cartridge for accuracy in my experience. (Remember the 3 B's for accuracy - Bullets, Barrel, and Bedding, in our case "bedding" is barrel fit/lockup.) Other things matter somewhat, but those three are the most important to get right. 

 

There are general rules of thumb for powders, like the burn rate stuff we've discussed above, but when it comes down to it, accuracy is primarily about using a good bullet, then seating it straight, and then finding a powder that burns consistently and develops the right pressure curve for the load you want. Other details like neck tension, crimp, and primer choice also play a part but are generally farther down the list of importance. Ideally, you'll find a load with a good bullet that is not very sensitive to small changes in the other variables; that's how you get a good load that works well year round and with mixed brass, rather than a finicky load that works really well in specific conditions but falls apart when something changes. 

 

I'm not a bullseye shooter and don't use N330 or 340, so I haven't tried to answer that question specifically, but hopefully my comments above help. 

 

Ok, so the only factor I can control is the bullet. So another question : will the same speed give the same result, no matter what powder was used? That's what I was told, and I'm not sure that's right, but I haven't got enough information to disprove it. I think that different accelerations will make the bullet travel in different ways even if the fps were the same at one point. 

 

Compared to any other factor, how much would you rate "seating the bullet straight" from 1 to 10? I didn't give too much attention to that, and I want to make sure next time I pay enough attention.

 

Also, can differences be noticeable when shooting still, with no sandbags/rest, etc...? I read a lot about 2 inches groups at 50 yards but I guess they're made using sandbags/rests