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Most important factors for accuracy - 9MM


xdf3

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3 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

Would you shoot loads over 135 pf even though that might mean slower splits...

 

It doesn’t. (Soft ammo helps mask issues for those with a poorly developed grip.)

 

3 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

...and less barrel durability?

 

You’re still using ammo considerably softer than the barrel was designed for. Non issue. Guys get tens of thousands of rounds out of open guns going 500+ FPS faster with the same 124gr bullet.

 

3 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

 

 

 

I mean, I wouldn't even consider barrel durability if I had better accuracy and nothing else. Performance > weapon durability (to me).

 

For > 135 pf loads would you prefer progressive powders? I'm still learning a lot of basic stuffs. I am sticking to an easy to load powder, which may not be the best (I think it's the same as the LOVEX D032 ) but it's really cheap compared to most powders.

 

I wasted years chasing the magic supersoft powder. Clays. Solo. WST. Ramshot Comp. titegroup. Prima V. A dozen others.

 

It doesn’t matter. It... just doesn’t matter on match day. Anything in that faster burn rate will get the job done.

 

Load for accuracy. Not for felt recoil. Loading for anything  other than accuracy is a fool’s errand

 

In time, feel free to try to soften a known good load up a little bit. But if your gun shoots 1/2” tighter at 10yd than Mr. Mousefart over there? You have an advantage next time they put a headshot target at that distance.

 

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7 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

It doesn’t. (Soft ammo helps mask issues for those with a poorly developed grip.)

 

 

You’re still using ammo considerably softer than the barrel was designed for. Non issue. Guys get tens of thousands of rounds out of open guns going 500+ FPS faster with the same 124gr bullet.

 

 

I wasted years chasing the magic supersoft powder. Clays. Solo. WST. Ramshot Comp. titegroup. Prima V. A dozen others.

 

It doesn’t matter. It... just doesn’t matter on match day. Anything in that faster burn rate will get the job done.

 

Load for accuracy. Not for felt recoil. Loading for anything  other than accuracy is a fool’s errand

 

In time, feel free to try to soften a known good load up a little bit. But if your gun shoots 1/2” tighter at 10yd than Mr. Mousefart over there? You have an advantage next time they put a headshot target at that distance.

 

Actually, I've shot with about 135 pf mostly, and it works fine with 2 hands, but I feel like I'm losing a lot of time when shooting with strong/weak hand only. And I'm sure I can't grip more, I'd have to start training. 

 

I'd want to have the tightest group possible, to start with. I'll have to try and see what I can get. 

 

Any idea about OAL and bullet diameter? 

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8 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I'd want to have the tightest group possible, to start with. I'll have to try and see what I can get. 

 

Any idea about OAL and bullet diameter? 

OAL is one of those things you'll have to experiment with to know for sure: start at your max length, find the most accurate powder charge, then shorten the OAL a little at a time(I use 0.01" increments, but some use 0.005" increments), watching for pressure signs as you go. Some powders can get really "spikey" if you get too short, so that's something to be aware of.

Bullet diameter will also take some experimenting. In the barrel I use the most(and therefore work up loads with), I found that it prefers the larger diameters: .356 plated is more accurate than .355, and the one .357 coated bullet I've tried was more accurate and cleaner than the .356 version of the same.
That said, when going to larger diameters, you'll have to keep an eye on your crimp and adjust as needed to avoid denting the bullets(which can really hurt accuracy).

Larger diameters will also go a little faster for the same powder charge, so working up your charge whenever you change diameters is a good idea(basically mandatory - just cut the powder back a couple tenths of a grain, then work it back up).

As @superdude said, " Your barrel will tell you what it likes. "

Finding what your barrel likes can take a lot of time experimenting, but if your ultimate goal is maximum accuracy, that's what it'll take to get there.

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9 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I'm not sure I found any differences in using different diameters, maybe I'm not good enough at shooting good groups yet.

This may also be something to look into: How are you shooting your groups?

When testing loads, you want to take yourself out of the equation as much as possible: I shoot seated, with my back against something solid, steadying/resting my arms on my knees, and focusing on trigger pull/sight alignment.
A lot of people use sandbags on a bench or table to support their hands/pistol instead, which is a really good system if it works for you and your setup.

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2 hours ago, Harpo said:

This may also be something to look into: How are you shooting your groups?

When testing loads, you want to take yourself out of the equation as much as possible: I shoot seated, with my back against something solid, steadying/resting my arms on my knees, and focusing on trigger pull/sight alignment.
A lot of people use sandbags on a bench or table to support their hands/pistol instead, which is a really good system if it works for you and your setup.

I have to find a place where I can do this. Last time I tried to rest my arms on a table, it didn't change anything. 

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3 hours ago, Harpo said:

OAL is one of those things you'll have to experiment with to know for sure: start at your max length, find the most accurate powder charge, then shorten the OAL a little at a time(I use 0.01" increments, but some use 0.005" increments), watching for pressure signs as you go. Some powders can get really "spikey" if you get too short, so that's something to be aware of.

Bullet diameter will also take some experimenting. In the barrel I use the most(and therefore work up loads with), I found that it prefers the larger diameters: .356 plated is more accurate than .355, and the one .357 coated bullet I've tried was more accurate and cleaner than the .356 version of the same.
That said, when going to larger diameters, you'll have to keep an eye on your crimp and adjust as needed to avoid denting the bullets(which can really hurt accuracy).

Larger diameters will also go a little faster for the same powder charge, so working up your charge whenever you change diameters is a good idea(basically mandatory - just cut the powder back a couple tenths of a grain, then work it back up).

As @superdude said, " Your barrel will tell you what it likes. "

Finding what your barrel likes can take a lot of time experimenting, but if your ultimate goal is maximum accuracy, that's what it'll take to get there.

Doesn't bigger diameter result in more fouling, in general? And much higher pressures.

 

Were all of the bullets you used of high quality? What gun is that?

 

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3 hours ago, xdf3 said:

Doesn't bigger diameter result in more fouling, in general? And much higher pressures.

 

 

Data on bullet diameter and pressure is lacking. An old bit of data published many years back by Speer suggested little change in pressure with larger diameter bullets. However, more current testing would be welcome. 

 

For what it's worth, Schuemann (of Schuemann barrels) recommends a jacketed bullet of .001 to .002 inches larger, and lead bullets .002 to .003 inches larger for the best accuracy.

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7 hours ago, xdf3 said:

Doesn't bigger diameter result in more fouling, in general? And much higher pressures.

 

Were all of the bullets you used of high quality? What gun is that?

Bigger bullets can actually help reduce leading, as they fit more tightly to the bore, helping scrape away lead left behind by previous bullets.

When loading plain lead bullets(I'm sure it applies to coated as well - still conducting tests, personally), they say that fit is one of the biggest parts in preventing leading.
And they do bump pressure up a little, which is why you want to drop your powder charge a bit and work back up. But the way I've heard it, you'll be having problems chambering before you need to worry about pressure.
The bullets were all good - plated were HSM(.355") and Berrys(.356"), and seemed about as consistent as any other plated I've tried.

Coated were ACMEs, which have been extremely consistent for the little I've used - among the best coated I've run yet(once I choose a weight on those, I'll definitely be making a bulk order)
Gun is a Glock 19, used the stock barrel for plated, then I moved to a Faxon barrel for coated.

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19 hours ago, BillGarlandJr said:

I see a number of recommendations for driving pf north of 135.....I agree! Seems a lot of folks get lost in the weeds trying to get the softest shooting load.....128-130ish pf, and its at the cost of accuracy. Its 9mm. It doesn't buck much regardless. But, in my experience, getting above 135 has almost always delivered better accuracy. For my money the more accurate load pays dividends.

 

Looking at the Lyman load data manual for 9mm lead loads on my desk:

4 of their "best accuracy" loads are minimum charge loads and the remaining 4 "best accuracy" loads are maximum charge loads. 

Les Baer told me he ransom rest tests his 1.5" 50 yard guarantee 9mm 1911's with 124 grain American eagle which is shown on the manufactures website to be either 1120 or 1140 fps (not sure which of the two options LB uses) so about 140 power factor.

Make of that what you wish, I couldn't find any more accuracy vs power factor data.

 

Personally I shoot both faster (slightly-unimportant) and more accurately (important) with low power factor loads on match day. Minimizing sight movement aids confidence among other things and perhaps that is the main thing with me. 

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Projectile: HAP or Zero conical ...barrel... barrel twist.

My 1911 9mm with a KKM 1x32 twist will shoot 1 1/2" at 50 out of a ramsom rest all day long.

Same load 929 will put 24 rounds in 2 1/2" at 50 yards in a ransom rest.

 

I have shot many of AHI's loads out of a rest. I know of no one else that has put the effort into verifying his Glock and 9mm PCC loads!!

 

Tom

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/5/2019 at 8:23 AM, xdf3 said:

Hi,

 

what do you think are the most important factors to reload 9mm cartriges? 

Primers, powder, AOL, type of round.

At what distance have you found differences?

 

I have little resources to find out at the moment and I'd like to read some opinions/experiences about this topic. I'm not sure I noticed any difference yet (up to 25-30 yards).

 

I have a 9mm load that a friend of mine gave me.  He tested around 50 loads before settling on this one.  Let me know if you're interested, and I'll share the data with you. 

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5 hours ago, CSEMARTIN said:

 

I have a 9mm load that a friend of mine gave me.  He tested around 50 loads before settling on this one.  Let me know if you're interested, and I'll share the data with you. 

 

I think we would all like to know. Thanks. 

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115 grain 9 mm JHP Montana Gold

.355 diameter

5.7 grains Alliant Power Pistol

OAL 1.082”

Crimp 0.378”

 

For the crimp I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Back the knob out (CCW). Run the round into the die, keep it there and turn the die handle/knob until it just touches. Pull the round out of the die by pushing the handle forward. I score the knob with a single line on an edge with a knife to have a reference point. Turn the knob clockwise 360 degrees and it is set.

 

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What type of accuracy are you (or your friend) getting?  Distance, shots per group?  Smallest and largest groups? The largest groups would be of particular interest.

 

What barrel brand and twist rate? 

 

Preferred primer? Brass?  Have you tried different bullets? If so which ones? Their results?

 

Did this come from Bob Marvel?

 

The details might be useful.  Thanks. 

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32 minutes ago, superdude said:

 

 

Did this come from Bob Marvel?

 

The details might be useful.  Thanks. 

 

No, this is not Bob Marvel’s load. I do not have his permission to post his load data.

 

I wish I could help you, but I don’t have that data. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, CSEMARTIN said:

 

No, this is not Bob Marvel’s load. I do not have his permission to post his load data.

 

I wish I could help you, but I don’t have that data. 

 

 

 

Darn. 🙂

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