Reloads/Mags on table

[CZRob]

Just going over a huge amount of stages for the coming year and I noticed inconsistency in start position instructions for reloads on a table/barrel/etc.

 

Given a CoF start position is:  "Gun loaded to division capacity, in box, and reloads on table."

 

Would it be a PE if the shooter did not put all magazines on the table during 'make ready'?  (If it is not a PE to leave a magazine on the belt, would it be a PE if they used it?)

 

Would specifying '..all reloads on table' change anything beyond using just '..reloads on table'?

 

Thank you in advance.

[45 Raven]

The CoF specified reloads on the table.  So yes, it would be a PE if the shooter used a reload from anywhere else but on the table.

 

It's also important to remember that if the CoF also specifies that the shooter is to start with an empty gun, then any magazines placed on the table, in a box, on the belt, etc. must be loaded ONLY to the appropriate division capacity. 

 

More than once, I have seen shooters (correctly) penalized for starting such a CoF with that extra cartridge in the magazine like they do when they are going to make ready with a loaded gun. 

[rowdyb]

Spend a little more time writing it. If you want no one to have any ammunition carrying device on them, then state it. You can be specific without being wordy. Start Condition: Gun loaded on table, lying flat with trigger over mark. All ammunition carriers on table. Ammunition carrier retained by shooter at start of CoF will result in 1 PE.

 

Or some such version. It all goes back to the elementary school exercise of your teacher saying "write instructions to make a pb&j sandwich" and seeing how many kids got caught out by writing "spread the pb on one piece of bread and the j on another" and calling it good. No mention of where to get the bread, opening any of the items, what to spread with and so on.

 

Having a clear idea of what you want and having a second set of eyes proof read it, with your intent in mind, makes a world of difference in preventing the most onerous range lawyering from happening once the match starts.

[MarilynMonbro]

Here's an example from State match last year that started sitting on a toilet seat.


START POSITION: Sitting at SP, both cheeks down. Loaded to division capacity and placed on either table with muzzle pointing towards door. All ammo to be used in the stage placed on either or both tables.

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[elguapo]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 11:03 AM, rowdyb said:

Spend a little more time writing it. If you want no one to have any ammunition carrying device on them, then state it. You can be specific without being wordy. Start Condition: Gun loaded on table, lying flat with trigger over mark. All ammunition carriers on table. Ammunition carrier retained by shooter at start of CoF will result in 1 PE.

 

Or some such version. It all goes back to the elementary school exercise of your teacher saying "write instructions to make a pb&j sandwich" and seeing how many kids got caught out by writing "spread the pb on one piece of bread and the j on another" and calling it good. No mention of where to get the bread, opening any of the items, what to spread with and so on.

 

Having a clear idea of what you want and having a second set of eyes proof read it, with your intent in mind, makes a world of difference in preventing the most onerous range lawyering from happening once the match starts.

 

This.  Laziness in writing stage descriptions results in stupid PEs subject to interpretation and range lawyering.

 

Spending another 5 min reviewing and clarifying your stage description will avoid all that

[CZRob]

On 3/1/2019 at 7:29 PM, 45 Raven said:

The CoF specified reloads on the table.  So yes, it would be a PE if the shooter used a reload from anywhere else but on the table.

 

It's also important to remember that if the CoF also specifies that the shooter is to start with an empty gun, then any magazines placed on the table, in a box, on the belt, etc. must be loaded ONLY to the appropriate division capacity. 

 

More than once, I have seen shooters (correctly) penalized for starting such a CoF with that extra cartridge in the magazine like they do when they are going to make ready with a loaded gun. 

 

Thank you.  Your answer was quite helpful.