Help - Diagnose my slow split times

[Wookiee]

I'm currently having issues breaking 0.20-21 split times. Holding the gun out, good grip, close target, pulling the trigger as fast as I can ( I think ), I can't get faster than 0.20 splits. I can tell in the video that I have a habit of pinning the trigger through the recoil cycle, but would like some tips and advice on what I can do to speed it up.
 

 

[redpillregret]

You can release the trigger during recoil to allow reset.

Are you seeing what you need to see? Are you able to make acceptable shots with splits in the .20 range? If so, I don’t think a .2 split is holding many back.


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[Furrly]

. 20 splits are plenty good.. 

[Wookiee]

18 hours ago, redpillregret said:

You can release the trigger during recoil to allow reset.

Are you seeing what you need to see? Are you able to make acceptable shots with splits in the .20 range? If so, I don’t think a .2 split is holding many back.


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I can see the sights well enough to make multiple shots in the black on a B8 with .20-21 splits, but trying to push myself to shoot faster, such as a bill drill in under 2 seconds is proving to be tough.

[CHA-LEE]

Shooting splits faster than .20 is only viable if your recoil management can support it. Watching the slow motion video your recoil control starts to degrade after the 3rd shot and starts to get really wobbly after that.

 

The primary delay in your "Finger Speed" is pinning the trigger back during the shot and it doesn't start to move forward until well after the gun has cycled. The other thing I notice is that your trigger finger forward movement goes to the reset point while maintaining in contact with the trigger the whole time. Watch slow motion video of other shooters cranking out sub .20 splits and their finger is rowing forward far enough to come off the trigger. Spending time to "Feel For" the trigger reset during the forward finger motion wastes time. Especially when you are pinning the trigger to the rear through the whole cycle of the slide.

 

Practice firing shots by starting the trigger pull with your finger not touching the trigger shoe and row through the whole trigger stroke. As soon as the hammer/striker drops immediately row your finger forward until it comes off the trigger and then immediately row it back through the trigger pull again.

[IHAVEGAS]

I wonder how close the targets need to be for even the fastest to shoot faster than .20 ?

 

[CHA-LEE]

26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I wonder how close the targets need to be for even the fastest to shoot faster than .20 ?

 

 

The answer to that question is what separates the chumps from the champs. Higher skilled shooters usually separate their skill level from lower skilled shooters by being able to shoot further or more difficult targets "Faster". There is plenty of video evidence online showing solid GM skill level shooters cranking out sub .20 splits, which produce solid hits, at distances which are well beyond what lower classification shooters can do. Your average B class Joe Blow can usually rip sub .20 splits but doing so rarely yields solid hits past 7 yards.

[MemphisMechanic]

Charlie pretty much nailed it.

 

Quit with the tacticool pin & reset gobbledegook. It’s slow and prone to triggerfreezing. Slap the trigger against the overtravel limit behind it’s break like a human staple gun, come totally off the trigger, and punch it again.

 

(In time you’ll learn to finesse this more, but first you’ve got to learn a fast finger.)

 

Grip the gun harder. Much tighter. Someone recieving a handshake from you should be cringing. Then relax the strong hand slightly to loosen the trigger finger up, and keep the weak hand clamped down.

 

Practice this up front with exactly two shots with the target a yard from the muzzle. Slapslap. over and over. 

 

Then once you have that down, try three. Etc.

Edited March 1, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

Right now I can expect solid As with .19 - .20 splits at about 8-10 yards distance when I’m gripping the gun right. I’m an 80%ish A class shooter.

 

GMs can rail on things at 25yds at double the speed I can, but a few years ago I wasn’t shooting nearly this fast on 10yd targets, either.

 

Personally I’ve just let my split speed be whatever it is, and focused on running the sights. The speed is whatever it is and I’ve never worked on splitting faster once I developed a fast enough finger.

 

Transitions and other tasks however... those need consciously worked on.

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Wookiee]

Thanks for the tips, guys!

Those are some things I have never thought of before.

[MikeBurgess]

Another thing that gets missed by some on fast splits is you have to decide to fire the second shot before the first one has happened. This doesn't mean you are not aiming and are not seeing the sights it just means you have committed to firing that second (or more) shot and are using the sights to confirm what you expected to happen, happened.   

 

So to put it another way its aim fire, fire while confirming with the sights that the shots when were you intended. Basically aiming and trigger press are two separate programs that run side by side not one then the other. 

 

 

[bimmer1980]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Another thing that gets missed by some on fast splits is you have to decide to fire the second shot before the first one has happened. This doesn't mean you are not aiming and are not seeing the sights it just means you have committed to firing that second (or more) shot and are using the sights to confirm what you expected to happen, happened.   

 

So to put it another way its aim fire, fire while confirming with the sights that the shots when were you intended. Basically aiming and trigger press are two separate programs that run side by side not one then the other. 

 

 

 

Well, i´m a newbie, but maximum splits is the last thing i would train for at the moment. While .20 is pretty fast i would not want to waste hundreds of rounds to get some .18´s at 7 yards. I would spend them at 10-25 yards to bring those .30-.40 splits down while maintaining good accuracy and i would focus on things that shave of more time, like fast index, movement, reloads, stageplaning, fast exit and entry, shooting on the move, startpositions etc.

Back to your Video: it looks like the main timekiller is your finger pause after the shot. I do the same thing sometimes... maybe because my brain thinks i need that finger to hold the gun in recoil...

[Corrado_kid]

Splits are the smallest amount of gain on stages. Yes it is nice to have fast splits, but there is more to be gained on transitions and getting to the next target sooner. From watching your video you can release the trigger as the soon as the gun goes off and starts to recoil. .20-.21 splits are good enough if you’re seeing what you need to see to break the second shot. 

[xdf3]

So will you let the local GM gain 0.30s per split at 25 yards? Like 3 targets at 25 yards. Let's say it's 0.3 per 5 hits. 1.5 seconds. If it takes some tweaks to reach it, I would do it

[bimmer1980]

19 hours ago, xdf3 said:

So will you let the local GM gain 0.30s per split at 25 yards? Like 3 targets at 25 yards. Let's say it's 0.3 per 5 hits. 1.5 seconds. If it takes some tweaks to reach it, I would do it

 

Said who ?

[CHA-LEE]

Obviously being able to shoot "Faster" at more difficult targets than your competition is going to be an advantage. That is a completely different discussion when compared to the topic this thread is started on. This thread is associated with "How can I shoot faster at my maximum rage blasting speed".

[xdf3]

7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Obviously being able to shoot "Faster" at more difficult targets than your competition is going to be an advantage. That is a completely different discussion when compared to the topic this thread is started on. This thread is associated with "How can I shoot faster at my maximum rage blasting speed".

I've seen the disconnector travel matters a lot. I can shoot 0.10 splits with the one I use now (0.12 for sure), but I can't with a stock CZ Shadow2. 

[CHA-LEE]

Sure, total physical trigger travel distance required to break and reset the trigger becomes a major factor in "Shooting Fast". The further you have to physically move your finger to fire a shot the longer it will take to do it. More often than not though, when people are shooting super fast splits in the .08 - .12 range its a bump fire scenario where the trigger finger is stationary and the whole gun movement due to recoil is pushing the trigger into the stationary finger when the slide snaps back forward.

[JayTac556]

I'm currently having issues breaking 0.20-21 split times. Holding the gun out, good grip, close target, pulling the trigger as fast as I can ( I think ), I can't get faster than 0.20 splits. I can tell in the video that I have a habit of pinning the trigger through the recoil cycle, but would like some tips and advice on what I can do to speed it up.
 
 

Look up the doubles drill from Ben stoeger. Awesome drill and will help with your splits.

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[redpillregret]

Matches are not won or loss by splits.


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[JayTac556]

Matches are not won or loss by splits.


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They are if your splits are more than .25 that's a quarter second man. 4 transitions at that slow of a pace you lost the match match. Splits are not everything but splits and transitions are important.

.20 is acceptable and good. I'd he wants to get better and get faster let him. Ben stoeger strives for preteen splits sonot sure what you mean by matches are not won or lost by splits.

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[redpillregret]

Transitions are much more important than splits.

Say a dude shoots .15 splits and the next dude shoots .25 splits. Let’s assume they are all alphas, which isn’t realistic. An eighteen round field course the splits are 1.8 seconds. Some dudes draw to first shot are that large. What about reloads, transitions, and coming into and out of position, etc?

I didn’t tell him not to work on splits, but that’s the last thing that will change the outcome. There are more gains to be made other places.


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[elguapo]

You look like one of those guys who learned to shoot the tacticool "riding the reset" way.  Memphis Mechanic nailed it.  Forget all that tactical bulls#!t and slap the s#!t out of the trigger.

 

Also listen to his advice on what to work on.  Splits ain't it unless you're here to try to hundo some timmy drill like FAST or one of the myriad timmy drills on B8 repair centers

[rowdyb]

Faster splits is often a function of your trigger finger tension and how you reset the trigger. Relaxing, changing those and eventually your splits will decrease.

 

As for its value to overall stage performance? Well let's presume a 32 round stage, 4 shooting positions with 4 targets in each. All equal distance and availability.

To shoot the stage in Prod you would have

P1, T1-4, draw. split. transition. split. transition. split. transition, split. reload. movement to next.

P2, T5-8, initial shot, split, transition, split, transition split, transition, split. reload. movement to next.

You get the idea. Basically you do in the course of a stage 1 draw. 3 reloads. 3 movements. 15 splits and transitions.  So you have 7 things that take large chunks of time. Draw, movement and reload. Thankfully we usually move and and reload at the same time. Which one probably takes the most time? Movement.

 

Next we have 30 small items, splits and transitions. Of those which usually takes the longer time? Transitions.

 

Proportionally if you want to have the greatest effect on reducing your stage time I would choose movement and transitions. Getting "you" from place to place and the "gun" from place to place.

 

That said, let's look at it globally. There are approximately 34 actions you're performing during the stage as discreet elements. Things not blended together. Say you got 0.03 of a second faster at all of them. Yep, just three hundredths of a second. (an eye blink is about 0.18 of a second, so 1/6th of an eye blink better everywhere) You gain 1 second on a stage. One.

 

Of course if you did everything 0.08 of a second better you now lose 2.72 of a second off your time! But once you're good, you're not going to find 0.08 off of your splits. But you sure could off of transitions. And more like 0.50 off of movements. So which is better? 0.03 off of 15 splits or 0.08 off of 15 transitions. Transitions win at  1.2 seconds. And 0.50 off of three movements is even better at 1.50 seconds!

 

So as you sit there reviewing your match performance and ever say, "Wow, they are always beating my by 2 seconds a stage.... I don't see it. Where are they getting me?" Barring you doing something really dumb and fumbly, it's probably movement and transitions.  More than one pro, wold and national champ has said to me what they value most of all in perfecting in their performance and splits is never mentioned in the top 3. (Yes everything matters, yes the timer records down to 0.01 of a second. But you need to choose the propper order and focus where to work on reduction of time)

[JayTac556]

@rowdyb

Great write up and great point. I would agree with you 100 percent with Transitions and Movement are the most time savers especially in Production Division (which I shoot). With that being said you should always be working on your lowest hanging fruit no matter what that fruit is and that should always be changing as you progress in skill.

My splits were at one point .5 which is absolutely horrible and had to be worked on. Now my weakest point is transitions and movement as my splits are average .2 at 7-10 yard target.

You also can only shoot as fast as you see the front sight post which the Doubles Drill will help with that and get the timing of you gun down.

At the end of the day everything needs to get better and faster for us to get faster and better in this sport. Even the top guys work on every little thing including splits. I personally dont think working on splits is a bad thing but like you said it's not the most important.


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