reasoning behind mag rules?

[egd5]

Shooting is just a fun game for me. I don't shoot much idpa because of all the little rules, BUT, I can understand the reasoning behind them considering the basis of the organization-defense. However I really don't understand the rules about not dropping a mag with any bullets in it and your gun having to be completely empty too. Why was that put in the rules? What is the defensive situation where this would be practical?

[Smitty79]

I think your question is about dropping a mag without any bullets in it.  If i were making a rule, i would charge 1 second penalty for each round left behind, even for malfuntion clearances if still in the mag.  

[egd5]

Yeah, same thing I think. If I understand it right you cannot drop a mag on the ground if it has any bullets in it and also, I believe, even if you do drop an empty mag your gun has to be completely empty also?  From a tactical standpoint this seems contrary to what I thought idpa was about, so I wonder what the reasoning is for this rule.

[MemphisMechanic]

@egd5 it isn’t because that’s tactically sound. It’s just because it prevents the alternative. Been to a USPSA match recently? You can shoot anything you can see, and reload anywhere you like.

 

In USPSA Production (10+1 capacity just like IDPA) we ideally load when moving. You often will fire 4 to 8 shots, dump the mag, and load while moving to the next position.

 

You’d never download to 1 round before running across an opening with bad dudes about. So they tried to enfore a more real-world mindset with these rules.

 

Which almost works. But also doesn’t make sense at all.

 

And since 2010 IDPA has *totally* redefined when and where you’re allowed to reload at least 3 seperate times. Anyone remember the all-flat-footed round dumping debacle? Yeah.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, egd5 said:

Why was that put in the rules?

 

When I belonged one of the things Joyce Wilson wrote was that IDPA did not want to become "USPSA Light". Not sure if they have held onto the empty mag thing just to be different or if anyone actually believes that it is a tactical advantage. 

[egd5]

So it's just to be different even though it doesn't make sense. Well, they succeeded

 

BTW, uspsa is mostly what I shoot.

[bdpaz]

It's not just to be different. As I understand it the rule exists because it was felt that "in real life" you wouldn't (or couldn't) be counting shots and would just shoot until there was a click instead of a bang. So the result is a rule that actually emphasizes counting to avoid penalties.

[egd5]

OK, there's a certain amount of logic to that, I think. But using that logic, if I'm not counting shots and I know I've fired a bunch, I'm going to reload as fast as I can if I get a chance somewhere. And I ain't saving the mag.

Boils down to what everyone keeps telling me, it's just a different game with different rules. Get used to it.

[MikeRussell]

56 minutes ago, egd5 said:

Boils down to what everyone keeps telling me, it's just a different game with different rules. Get used to it.

 

BINGO! 

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, bdpaz said:

It's not just to be different. As I understand it the rule exists because it was felt that "in real life" you wouldn't (or couldn't) be counting shots and would just shoot until there was a click instead of a bang. So the result is a rule that actually emphasizes counting to avoid penalties.

You're correct on the reasoning, but the rule was meant to force the competitor to either run dry and reload thereby training/testing that skill (actually leads to dumping rounds without being obvious about it) or Reload with Retention which was supposed to reflect the topping off when possible, lull in the action, and it not being wise to leave rounds behind.

Whether either are the best method, or even wise to force, in all situations, is another argument.  But then the USPSA method of reloading when moving and leaving rounds on the ground can also be a bad habit, except for those horrible Open/Limited guys who shoot all day!!!

Wait I've been one of them also. Now if I could just stop "Air Gunning" the course...

Edited February 27, 2019 by pskys2

[rowdyb]

22 hours ago, egd5 said:

Shooting is just a fun game for me. I don't shoot much idpa because of all the little rules, BUT, I can understand the reasoning behind them considering the basis of the organization-defense. However I really don't understand the rules about not dropping a mag with any bullets in it and your gun having to be completely empty too. Why was that put in the rules? What is the defensive situation where this would be practical?

Nothing to do with practicality if anyone is being honest. It is all about ease of officiating. Just like the old flat footed reload debacle.

[egd5]

OK, you're the second person to mention the flat footed debacle. Dare I ask what that was about?

[ddc]

28 minutes ago, egd5 said:

OK, you're the second person to mention the flat footed debacle. Dare I ask what that was about?

 

I'd love to explain but every time I think about it my head explodes.

 

Hopefully somebody will be along shortly who can keep it together.

[himurax13]

OK, you're the second person to mention the flat footed debacle. Dare I ask what that was about?

Luckily I was taking a break and missed all of that.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

[SWprotected]

The rules are a little better now as far as reloading is concerned. I now wish they would just leave them alone.

[rowdyb]

pre 2013 you could do any legal idpa reload as long as you were behind cover. Back when cover was an invisible line on the ground that no one could see and wasn't delineated beyond know what the rule for is was. so the SO had to make sure you were doing a reload and that you were totally behind cover as you did so. Since the reload starts when you grab a mag or press the button those small actions had to be visualized and timed by the SO to see if the shooter was also behind cover. Most competitors were moving quickly, their actions somewhat obscured by the two parties relative positions so it was not an exact science.

 

There were many, many, many heated arguments about calls made for doing a reload not behind cover. It seemed to be the #1 point of contention during matches. Even more than scoring calls. SO were complaining to HQ and shooters were complaining about officiating to MD's.

 

Along comes the revision to calm this area of contention that all reloads be done standing still, aka "the flat footed reload". Along with it came a bunch of pseudo tactical crap explaining why it was  a good idea. (while my arkansas connections said it was entirely an officiating decision) Then of course this had to be argued what was flat footed, did a pivot count and so on and so on. It made the shooting very herky jerky, stop motion. And the calls still ended up having too high of a level of subjectivity. And most shooters absolutely hated it. It had a greater effect how shooting the stages felt than even the change to 1sec/1pd has. Enough people told hq it was dumb, tiger team members spoke up and the rule was done away with.

 

That debacle. Personally, I wish the same thing would happen with 1s/1pd for many reasons, but I fear I'm in the minority and it is going to be that way forever.

 

The amount the SO has to pay attention to and judge on the fly is why the mag/reload rules are what they are to a very large extent.

Edited February 27, 2019 by rowdyb

[egd5]

Thanks. Makes me appreciate uspsa even more. Shoot the targets as they become visible.

So/ro have a tough job in both sports though. Thanks to those who do that.

[pskys2]

5 hours ago, rowdyb said:

pre 2013 you could do any legal idpa reload as long as you were behind cover. Back when cover was an invisible line on the ground that no one could see and wasn't delineated beyond know what the rule for is was. so the SO had to make sure you were doing a reload and that you were totally behind cover as you did so. Since the reload starts when you grab a mag or press the button those small actions had to be visualized and timed by the SO to see if the shooter was also behind cover. Most competitors were moving quickly, their actions somewhat obscured by the two parties relative positions so it was not an exact science.

 

There were many, many, many heated arguments about calls made for doing a reload not behind cover. It seemed to be the #1 point of contention during matches. Even more than scoring calls. SO were complaining to HQ and shooters were complaining about officiating to MD's.

 

Along comes the revision to calm this area of contention that all reloads be done standing still, aka "the flat footed reload". Along with it came a bunch of pseudo tactical crap explaining why it was  a good idea. (while my arkansas connections said it was entirely an officiating decision) Then of course this had to be argued what was flat footed, did a pivot count and so on and so on. It made the shooting very herky jerky, stop motion. And the calls still ended up having too high of a level of subjectivity. And most shooters absolutely hated it. It had a greater effect how shooting the stages felt than even the change to 1sec/1pd has. Enough people told hq it was dumb, tiger team members spoke up and the rule was done away with.

 

That debacle. Personally, I wish the same thing would happen with 1s/1pd for many reasons, but I fear I'm in the minority and it is going to be that way forever.

 

The amount the SO has to pay attention to and judge on the fly is why the mag/reload rules are what they are to a very large extent.

I'm an old USPSA guy, just shot my first IDPA last year.  One reason was the rules.  I remember the reloading behind cover rule (I kept checking IDPA out but the rules made it so it wasn't something to put effort into).

The way the rule was written made it sound that the time stopped when you were reloading, is that what it really was?  Surely not.

[rowdyb]

6 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Surely not.

nope, you were still on the clock. standing there like a doofus doing a reload without going anywhere

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

nope, you were still on the clock. standing there like a doofus doing a reload without going anywhere

[ddc]

I have this vague memory of the "pivot foot discussions" that I guess I've tried to suppress...lol

 

The 2013 rulebook was in effect when I started competitive shooting so I had nothing to compare it to but it sure raised my eyebrows on any number of occasions.

 

IMHO IDPA has really done themselves a disservice with the way they've handled the rulebook. 

 

 

[usmc1974]

Back in about 97 the 98 when I started shooting IDPA the rule was because in the real gunfight and not a competition you could lose count and you wouldn't take time to count your rounds anyway you would shoot the gun till it locked back drop the Meg and then reload that is the logic behind that rule but now it's just another game and the rules from 97 and 98 or all but history

[IHAVEGAS]

On 3/11/2019 at 6:56 AM, ddc said:

I have this vague memory of the "pivot foot discussions" that I guess I've tried to suppress...lol

 

At a level 2 there was a stage where you started while sitting in a vehicle that was parked parallel to the 180 and then exited the door.

 

A guy got out, turned the wrong way and did a 270, muzzled the whole squad, there were literally people running and diving to get out or stay out of the potential path of a bullet.

 

S.O. was focused on the guys feet, I guess there had been a lot of pivot foot debated calls at the match,  and didn't even notice as the gun crossed by his vital organs. No DQ. 

[ddc]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

At a level 2 there was a stage where you started while sitting in a vehicle that was parked parallel to the 180 and then exited the door.

 

A guy got out, turned the wrong way and did a 270, muzzled the whole squad, there were literally people running and diving to get out or stay out of the potential path of a bullet.

 

S.O. was focused on the guys feet, I guess there had been a lot of pivot foot debated calls at the match,  and didn't even notice as the gun crossed by his vital organs. No DQ. 

 

wow... 

 

I know how that feels. We had a guy several years ago who turned the wrong way and did that 270 degree trick. Yeah, there was about 15 people looking to hide.

 

No one had ever seen him before that match. No one has ever seen him since. 

[elguapo]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 12:08 AM, Smitty79 said:

 If i were making a rule, i would charge 1 second penalty for each round left behind, even for malfuntion clearances if still in the mag.  

 

That would be a good way to make sure lots of people never play it again.