Can we find a way to save USPSA Revo?

[1911Prof]

34 minutes ago, FlIceman said:

The way to save revolver is to reward the people who shoot it, ToolGuy mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Recognize the class not only the division, award first D and first C and so on. You can't expect someone to invest time and money in a division that may or may not be recognized.

It doesn't have to be a plaque it could be a coin or medallion, something to say I was here and did this.

People need something to strive for.

I suspect this could actually have a positive impact

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, FlIceman said:

The way to save revolver is to reward the people who shoot it, ToolGuy mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Recognize the class not only the division, award first D and first C and so on. You can't expect someone to invest time and money in a division that may or may not be recognized.

It doesn't have to be a plaque it could be a coin or medallion, something to say I was here and did this.

People need something to strive for.

 

Of the people I know who shoot maybe 20% attend level 2 and above matches.

 

Of the people I know who shoot higher level matches maybe 30-40% are thinking that they might win a trophy. 

[2Xalpha]

Capacity and reloads are the big issues for me. What if revolvers had one round per target? That would rougly half the number of reloads. Also, the point value for paper targets could be multiplied by two to drive the hit factors up.
 

[Bosshoss]

14 hours ago, FlIceman said:

The way to save revolver is to reward the people who shoot it, ToolGuy mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Recognize the class not only the division, award first D and first C and so on. You can't expect someone to invest time and money in a division that may or may not be recognized.

It doesn't have to be a plaque it could be a coin or medallion, something to say I was here and did this.

People need something to strive for.

So we want participation trophies?

 

OK I'm working/shooting the SNS 400 on June 7-8-9 there are now 3 revolvers signed up.

If the match director(Jake Martens) does not have a problem with it here is what I will do if we get 2 more for a total of 5 or more I will pay for medallions or coins for everyone that shoots the match in revolver and has a score. If we get 3 in a class(GM/M/A/B/C/D/Senior/Junior) I will pay for a trophy/plaque in that class.

AND if we get 10 or more revolvers with a score(you have to shoot and not just sign up) I will donate a free competition trigger job ($300 value) to be given away random draw to one of the revolver shooters. So odds are 1 in 9, or more if more sign up, since I won't be in the draw.

If you don't want or need the trigger job it will be transferable so you can sell it.

 

Match is almost full with 35 or so slots left so don't waste too much time. This depends on Jakes approval.

 

Edit: Jake said this is OK. 

 

https://practiscore.com/sns-400-indiana-section-championship/register?fbclid=IwAR3H6TFSCqS2pDz_sh3WP69dq0N-mtMGF-opr7ktRmyop3gdBm9P_YhrFRg

Edited March 10, 2019 by Bosshoss

[Tophernj]

8 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

So we want participation trophies?

 

OK I'm working/shooting the SNS 400 on June 7-8-9 there are now 3 revolvers signed up.

If the match director(Jake Martens) does not have a problem with it here is what I will do if we get 2 more for a total of 5 or more I will pay for medallions or coins for everyone that shoots the match in revolver and has a score. If we get 3 in a class(GM/M/A/B/C/D/Senior/Junior) I will pay for a trophy/plaque in that class.

AND if we get 10 or more revolvers with a score(you have to shoot and not just sign up) I will donate a free competition trigger job ($300 value) to be given away random draw to one of the revolver shooters. So odds are 1 in 9, or more if more sign up, since I won't be in the draw.

If you don't want or need the trigger job it will be transferable so you can sell it.

 

Match is almost full with 35 or so slots left so don't waste too much time. This depends on Jakes approval.

 

https://practiscore.com/sns-400-indiana-section-championship/register?fbclid=IwAR3H6TFSCqS2pDz_sh3WP69dq0N-mtMGF-opr7ktRmyop3gdBm9P_YhrFRg

That's awesome.  

Got a website?

[Bosshoss]

10 hours ago, Tophernj said:

That's awesome.  

Got a website?

Sorry No website 

[1911Prof]

i don’t think that people are looking for “participation” awards, but they do want a reason to shoot revolver.  If there are not enough shooters that it is even recognized, you are shooting the match “for fun” and let’s face it, even if we have no chance of “winning” we are still drawn by competition.  I think that reducing the number of shooters to recognize revolver shooters at matches is a great idea.  By percentage of shooters that are actually ‘special’ enough to shoot revolver, three showing up to a match is a large number.  

[MWP]

16 hours ago, 2Xalpha said:

Capacity and reloads are the big issues for me. What if revolvers had one round per target? That would rougly half the number of reloads. Also, the point value for paper targets could be multiplied by two to drive the hit factors up.
 

This would be hilarious. 

[tkheard]

I think they’d have to be As for a single; makeup shot to fix.

[Water63]

I enjoy the challenge of the revolver. It is hard to compete with the bottom feeders even the single stack guys. I like Boss Hoss's comment score iron sights as major and optics as minor. It's hard to convince some that giving up a 20 round magazine is going to be fun. 

[kimel]

I am probably an idiot but am in the process of tooling up for revo.  Why? Because I grew up shooting revolvers and enjoy shooting them. And, well, I love a challenge.  My uncle used to shoot PPC and showed me that game at around age 12.  Took 28 more years for me to find USPSA but it stuck and here I am.

 

Adding an optic won’t do much, IMHO.  It won’t bring in any more than it sends away.  It’s a wash.  I don’t have ICORE or IDPA within reasonable distance to me so the only game is USPSA.  I would support adding Revo Optics to CO and can’t see any reason not to.  It’s a very simple rule changes and gives folks that want to play that game a place to do it.  A lot of us still carry revolvers, at least part of the time and the evolution of the carry gun seems to be to include an optic.

 

I’m old enough now with a decent job that I don’t care about plaques, prizes or whatever.  My only competition is myself...do better than I did the last time.  Master the discipline because I want to do it, not because of any other reason.

 

And, sadly, as more and more states go down the round limit road the overall game will change. Although apparently the 10 round limit in Canada hasn’t helped Revo out.  Maybe Oregon and their five round limit...oh never mind.

 

 

 

 

[RJH]

If you want revolver participation to grow, you have to work on the local level, it is as simple as that.  Think about where you shoot, there is probably a dominate (in numbers) division.  Where i shoot it is limited followed buy open, with usually only one or two shooters in any of the other divisions.  So here if want to shoot against someone on a regular basis, you shoot limited.  Most people want to shoot against someone else, so in this part of the world, they buy a limited gun, it is a self propagating cycle.  

 

That is why if you want revolver to grow a local series for revolvers with local club involved is the way to go.  And yes a subset for speedloaders is a good idea, because people have them, and can give it a whirl without spending 2 grand.  However that suggest no change the the USPSA rules, only a class in practiscore

 

The reason people don't shoot revolver is not cause it is too hard (that is what revolver shooters say to feel good about themselves), or too slow, or cause they don't have a dot.  The reason people don't shoot revolver is because they don't want to shoot against themselves.  Very few people want to spend 2 grand on a rig to be top of a field of one.  Just like how here no one shoots production, one of the largest divisions in the country, because they only shoot against themselves.  It is the same with revolver

[1911Prof]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

However that suggest no change the the USPSA rules, only a class in practiscore

 

This could be part of a simple solution requiring no rule changes that could accommodate ICORE divisions including classic.  I’m not sure how it would affect classifiers if they were part of match.  For example, if you had a revolver optics in PractiScore how would you crosslink the classifier scores to open division in USPSA?

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, 1911Prof said:

This could be part of a simple solution requiring no rule changes that could accommodate ICORE divisions including classic.  I’m not sure how it would affect classifiers if they were part of match.  For example, if you had a revolver optics in PractiScore how would you crosslink the classifier scores to open division in USPSA?

 

I am not a practiscore whiz, so i have no precise answer, but all the guns in my example would still be uspsa legal, so the classifiers would be legal too.  

Edited March 11, 2019 by RJH

[JakeMartens]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I am not a practiscore whiz, so i have no precise answer, but all the guns in my example would still be uspsa legal, so the classifiers would be legal too.  

It is not about legal, it is about established High Hit Factors for classification and how making a change in a division would effect it. This is already been screwed up before with the 6 to 8 round change effecting some HHFs on stages with more than 6 rounds. And it definitely was acrewed up for PCC.

 

The larger issue that has been mentioned is that it is harder to shoot than other divisions and the cost of entry is pretty high considering what you need to get started. Take for example someone that is new and wants to get going, it is not just the guns, holster, moon clips, moon clip holders, moon clip loading tool, demooning tool. If you ask a Revolver shooter they will also tell you that you will need trigger job and other work on the gun and becasue of that you will need to reload ammo with only Federal primers, and you do t have to get a 929 you can get other models and can reload short Colt...

 

It is overwhelming, do all that and now spend hours learning how to reload the thing. Shooting a stage is much harder, 8 rounds minor, very limited capacity with minor scoring... you guys are masochist.

 

If optics are allowed then you are going to push away the people that won’t spend the money to “upgrade” their firearms. If it adds anyone it will maybe be a wash with those that leave it.

 

If optics on revolvers are allowed in CO very few would make the change in my opinion, because you are up against 22-23 round guns. If I am wrong, if people do move, will it be new people or just already pull from Revolver and reduce the already dwindling numbers? Would it be the end of Revolver?

 

What causes and effects have to be looked at not just for the immediate results but the 2-3-4-5 years from now effect.

 

You can’t just stick an optic on a revolver and pop it in Production Divison, you have to figure out the HHF.

You also can’t just give Revolver major scoring and reduce the power factor to say 145, the HHF have to be adjusted, and the same can be said for just adding an optic to the existing division.You can’t just flip a switch and make everything line up.

Even looking at the limited participation in this thread Revolver shooters are not in agreement with what changes “might” help.

I am a member of the bylaws and rules committee, however I do not vote. As a full time employee I am there to assist with the discussion based on being engaged at the club level, Match Director Level, and trends with in the industry and our members.

Any change I believe would have no net gain and would more likely have a negative  effect with less participation by rising the  perceived cost of entry or divide competitors numbers by adding optic Revolver to any other Davison, basically killing Revolver as a division.

 

Maybe a review of Appendix A2 with regards to participation and recognition, but for all divisons, not specific to just Revolver. However it will be met with resistance because of the “participation” medals idea. The men that created this did so to test the theories and equipment of combat shooting and to continue to develop techniques and technology, not to give a ribbon to the 3rd place out of three. This isn’t little league t-ball.

As a match director and competitor I actually like Appendix A2 the way that it is 10% recognition at Area and Nationals and 20% at Level 2, but I could make an argument to separate Area/level 3 and Nationals, but for all divisions, not just a doing a “special” thing for one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mcfoto]

As a newb venturing into the pond, let me share some observations:

 

For whatever reason, USPSA has evolved to a high-capacity game. That's what I like about ICORE, the game is designed around the guns we shoot. The only reason I'm considering shooting revolver in USPSA is opportunity. There's only one ICORE match a month here and it's almost a two hour drive from my home. USPSA happens almost every weekend here including at my home range, 15 minutes from my front door. Admittedly, some USPSA matches are more low-cap friendly than others. That's the beauty of going to different match locations - the MD's particular inclinations give the match a certain style. 

 

Asking for low-capacity "handicaps" seems unfair to me. I'd much prefer advocacy rather than accommodation. If I had someone approached me who was interested in shooting revolver in competition, I'd steer them toward Speed Steel or ICORE rather than throw them into a USPSA match. A certain level of shooting skill is needed to even attempt revolver in USPSA. 

 

As for scoring, my observation is that those who shoot revolver are on the low end of the competitive spectrum. They shoot revolver because they like it and tend to make it their own game. This maybe a reason I've noticed that husbands have a better change of getting their wives to come out if they are shooting revolver.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

The reason people don't shoot revolver is not cause it is too hard (that is what revolver shooters say to feel good about themselves),

 

I think the people who say it are people like me that dabble with revolver because it is fun and then go back to anything else because it is a heck of a lot easier. 

 

Stationary paper at reasonable speed and good accuracy is a challenge, people who can hit fast swingers & stars well and kick butt on the strong hand - weak hand stuff are impressive. 

 

Not trying to imply that the skill can't be learned. 

[RJH]

53 minutes ago, JakeMartens said:

It is not about legal, it is about established High Hit Factors for classification and how making a change in a division would effect it. This is already been screwed up before with the 6 to 8 round change effecting some HHFs on stages with more than 6 rounds. And it definitely was acrewed up for PCC.

 

The larger issue that has been mentioned is that it is harder to shoot than other divisions and the cost of entry is pretty high considering what you need to get started. Take for example someone that is new and wants to get going, it is not just the guns, holster, moon clips, moon clip holders, moon clip loading tool, demooning tool. If you ask a Revolver shooter they will also tell you that you will need trigger job and other work on the gun and becasue of that you will need to reload ammo with only Federal primers, and you do t have to get a 929 you can get other models and can reload short Colt...

 

It is overwhelming, do all that and now spend hours learning how to reload the thing. Shooting a stage is much harder, 8 rounds minor, very limited capacity with minor scoring... you guys are masochist.

 

If optics are allowed then you are going to push away the people that won’t spend the money to “upgrade” their firearms. If it adds anyone it will maybe be a wash with those that leave it.

 

If optics on revolvers are allowed in CO very few would make the change in my opinion, because you are up against 22-23 round guns. If I am wrong, if people do move, will it be new people or just already pull from Revolver and reduce the already dwindling numbers? Would it be the end of Revolver?

 

What causes and effects have to be looked at not just for the immediate results but the 2-3-4-5 years from now effect.

 

You can’t just stick an optic on a revolver and pop it in Production Divison, you have to figure out the HHF.

You also can’t just give Revolver major scoring and reduce the power factor to say 145, the HHF have to be adjusted, and the same can be said for just adding an optic to the existing division.You can’t just flip a switch and make everything line up.

Even looking at the limited participation in this thread Revolver shooters are not in agreement with what changes “might” help.

I am a member of the bylaws and rules committee, however I do not vote. As a full time employee I am there to assist with the discussion based on being engaged at the club level, Match Director Level, and trends with in the industry and our members.

Any change I believe would have no net gain and would more likely have a negative  effect with less participation by rising the  perceived cost of entry or divide competitors numbers by adding optic Revolver to any other Davison, basically killing Revolver as a division.

 

Maybe a review of Appendix A2 with regards to participation and recognition, but for all divisons, not specific to just Revolver. However it will be met with resistance because of the “participation” medals idea. The men that created this did so to test the theories and equipment of combat shooting and to continue to develop techniques and technology, not to give a ribbon to the 3rd place out of three. This isn’t little league t-ball.

As a match director and competitor I actually like Appendix A2 the way that it is 10% recognition at Area and Nationals and 20% at Level 2, but I could make an argument to separate Area/level 3 and Nationals, but for all divisions, not just a doing a “special” thing for one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IDK why you quoted me, my idea has no mention of optics on revolvers, so, maybe read what i wrote, then formulate a new response.  I have shot revolver, shooting a stage is not harder, it is just slower.  Once again,g o back and read what i actually wrote

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think the people who say it are people like me that dabble with revolver because it is fun and then go back to anything else because it is a heck of a lot easier. 

 

Stationary paper at reasonable speed and good accuracy is a challenge, people who can hit fast swingers & stars well and kick butt on the strong hand - weak hand stuff are impressive. 

 

Not trying to imply that the skill can't be learned. 

 

I have shot revolver quite a few times, with speed loaders, minor, and a GP100 no less.  Made B class, same as i am in limited, it ain't that hard, but shooting against NO ONE is boring as hell.  THAT is the problem

[MikeyScuba]

Lot of deckchairs being re-arranged in this thread.  Revo is already on life support.  Adding optics IMO isn't going to hurt, at least there will be a few more shooter and given the way my eyes are going I might be one of them in a few years. 2 or 3 wheelguns might attract a few others? There isn't enough competition in revo that will give optics that much of an edge.  My wife for one would be the extra revo shooter that might get someone else to bring the wheelgun out and make 3.  I'm not shooting it alone, though I have done so in the weeks before the IRC.  Like RJH says dull as s..t, ok it's what I would say but the point remains the same.

 

[MikeBurgess]

19 minutes ago, RJH said:

I have shot revolver, shooting a stage is not harder, it is just slower.

in a game scored by hit factor anything that make you slower is making the game harder, harder does not mean one cant hit a target in this game it means not scoring as many points as fast. 

 

As an example at the last nationals the Revo world champ shot 65.97% of the Limited champion.  with a highest stage score of 74% on a standard (6 reload 6, 2 strings) that says to me that revo is about 34% harder than limited.

 

[MikeBurgess]

Lot of deckchairs being re-arranged in this thread.  Revo is already on life support.  Adding optics IMO isn't going to hurt, at least there will be a few more shooter and given the way my eyes are going I might be one of them in a few years. 2 or 3 wheelguns might attract a few others? There isn't enough competition in revo that will give optics that much of an edge.  My wife for one would be the extra revo shooter that might get someone else to bring the wheelgun out and make 3.  I'm not shooting it alone, though I have done so in the weeks before the IRC.  Like RJH says dull as s..t, ok it's what I would say but the point remains the same.
 

But adding optics to Revo means anyone that currently shoots it will need to buy more stuff.
Our local ICORE match runs between 12 and 25 shooters with 1 to 3 open shooters, is possibly gaining some of that 1 to 3 worth alienating the rest?


Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[MikeyScuba]

I wouldn't be alienated, how about we put it to a vote about it?  I'd be curious.

 

I get what you are getting at, given that logic however why not dump the 8 shooters and make it 6 shooters only and speed(?) loaders. lol  Seems a few here got alienated by that.

 

At this point the patient doesn't have a heartbeat and we are well into heroic measures territory.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

in a game scored by hit factor anything that make you slower is making the game harder, harder does not mean one cant hit a target in this game it means not scoring as many points as fast. 

 

As an example at the last nationals the Revo world champ shot 65.97% of the Limited champion.  with a highest stage score of 74% on a standard (6 reload 6, 2 strings) that says to me that revo is about 34% harder than limited.

 

Dude,  still not harder. Just not optimum if hoa is the goal, but we have divisions, so high revolver would be the goal. 

 

 

Riding a moped is not really harder than a ninja, but if you are only racing mopeds, it don't matter how fast the  ninja goes.  The trick is getting more than one moped on the track......

[IHAVEGAS]

57 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I have shot revolver quite a few times, with speed loaders, minor, and a GP100 no less.  Made B class, same as i am in limited, it ain't that hard, 

There really aren't any hard shots or fast movers on classifiers and you don't have to do the one hand classifiers. For me that is where the cheese is binding.