Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

How Long have Open Guns Existed?


Recommended Posts

Hey All,

 

Was having a conversation with a friend regarding the origin of putting red dots on modern handguns - I know that open shooters have been doing it for a VERY long time in the various action shooting sports.  Does anyone know approximately how far back you've had to go to find the original open 1911s/2011s with original red dots?  

 

Any photos people have would be amazing!  Would love to see some of these old/original setups!

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by GorillaTactical
Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that is not quite correct.. Back in the days, when men were men, everyone competed against everyone - there were no divisions. American Ray Chapman won the 1975 World Shoot using hist iron sighted .45 caliber 1911. A year later, the unknown Norwegian Jan Foss stole the gold from the now big favorite Chapman. Interestingsly Foss used a 9 mm single stack SIG P210, having the disadvantage of minor power factor, but the advantage of an 8 round capacity as opposed to Chapman's 7. (So maybe the P210 also should be allowed in Classic division?) Just to have mentioned it, the 1977 World Shoot the following year was won by Rhodesian Dave Westerhout using a single action, double stack Browning Hi-Power in 9 mm.

 

 

I think open guns as we know them started to appear towards the end of the 1980's. Someone might have to correct me on this, but I think extended barrels with fixed front sights came first, then compensators, and lastly red dots. Believe single stack 1911 was the thing back then.

 

What is certain is that the first to win a world championship with a red dot was Doug Koenig (USA) at the 1990 IPSC Handgun World Shoot in Australia. In 1992 IPSC introduced the Open division, becoming effective from January 1993. Then at the 1993 IPSC Handgun World Shoot in Great Britain, Canadian Matthew McLearn represented USA taking the first world Open division title.


 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now.

 

 

Got me thinking about when double stack 1911 started to take over. This article from American Rifleman (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/25/a-look-back-at-the-m1911-double-stack/) mentions the Para-Ordnance high-capacity frame being introduced in 1988.

 

"At the time, the grand old M1911 pistol was rapidly losing the arms race among recreational shooters to double-stack pistols in 9 mm Luger. Hardly a month went by without a new, higher-capacity “wonder-nine” being introduced. [...]

Carefully choosing a bumper pad for the double-stack magazine gave John Browning’s pistol the capability of holding 21 cartridges of .38 Super. When extended magazines were later approved for competition, capacity jumped to a “load-on-Sunday-and-shoot-all-week” 27 rounds."

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, 2Xalpha said:

One place to start looking can be USPSA Front Sight editions from the late 80's.

 i saw Jery Barnhart    with collimator sight in late 80's. i started to use tasco pdp2 in 1992. best scope in the world. 

about compensators or muzzle breaks in 30's US gunsmith made  custom 1911's  for  known american gangster.

it was bushing type muzzle brake.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a video from the 1986 World Shoot in Florida
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNK8Do5tRHg
Difficult to see what guns they are using, but it looks like iron sighted 1911's.

 

1989 Steel Challenge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfuKltuzME
Seems to be some 1911's with sight tracker compensators. However, Steel Challenge might be a style of competition where irons sights are preferred due to increased speed on short distances, so it may not reflect the trend in IPSC at that time. Also, I have a hard time telling if the guns are single or double stacks. :P
 

Edited by 2Xalpha
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 2Xalpha said:

Here's a video from the 1986 World Shoot in Florida
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNK8Do5tRHg
Difficult to see what guns they are using, but it looks like iron sighted 1911's.

 

1989 Steel Challenge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfuKltuzME
Seems to be some 1911's with sight tracker compensators. However, Steel Challenge might be a style of competition where irons sights are preferred due to increased speed on short distances, so it may not reflect the trend in IPSC at that time. Also, I have a hard time telling if the guns are single or double stacks. :P
 

most  guns was 1911 single stuck  .most   of them cal .45 clark and  wilson models with front sight on comp.

i used in 86 wilson model 9mm . and from 86  compensated  3 chambers cz75  with peter sthal  5.25"  polygonal  barrels.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 2Xalpha said:

Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now.

 

 

Got me thinking about when double stack 1911 started to take over. This article from American Rifleman (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/25/a-look-back-at-the-m1911-double-stack/) mentions the Para-Ordnance high-capacity frame being introduced in 1988.

 

"At the time, the grand old M1911 pistol was rapidly losing the arms race among recreational shooters to double-stack pistols in 9 mm Luger. Hardly a month went by without a new, higher-capacity “wonder-nine” being introduced. [...]

Carefully choosing a bumper pad for the double-stack magazine gave John Browning’s pistol the capability of holding 21 cartridges of .38 Super. When extended magazines were later approved for competition, capacity jumped to a “load-on-Sunday-and-shoot-all-week” 27 rounds."

Very interesting video! I noticed the Caspian hi cap in the opening scenes, and Rob has what appears to be a STI mag in his hand at the chrono scene. Matt Mc. has a C-more, most everyone else is using a Tasco. When did the C-more debut?

Link to post
Share on other sites

i have pic.of competition guns from 1992 european champ. Spain

first open holster in the  world. 😉

 1911 guns in 38cal  many.

german made 1911 stile gun like phoenix trinity honcho . 10mm cal  6"  long slide.

cz long slide 6" barrel

tanfoglio with aimpoint

jericho 941 open gun

and  i saw few open glocks that shoot major .

most 9mm guns shoot major loads in this competition as i remember.😀

most optic was aimpoint and tasco pdp 3

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerry won the 1990 Nationals at Barry with a Tasco dot.  There was a lady shooter, I believe Canadian, with an Aimpoint on her open gun.  Team Springfield shot the P9 with open sights in the 9mm JLE.  The JLE was "just long enough" i.e. 9X21, to be legal as 9X19 major was illegal with the 175 power factor.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My first red dot was an Aimpoint with about a 3/4" tube.  Ran it on a S&W 586 in the 1984 season.

 

I built the first high-cap in our section about a month after Para offered their blocky aluminum 45 ACP receiver. (I still remember the accusations I was cheating with that 13 rd mag)

 

I installed a Wilson LEK comp on that gun and used it in the 1987 Nationals. It still had a Bomar rear sight.  I think its still in the gun safe.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 2Xalpha said:

Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now.

 

I shot that match with a Chip McCormick framed open gun built by Richard Wilson in UK. I think I used a Tasco scope for that match but later switched to an Aimpoint. That gun would still be competitive today, if it hadn’t been melted down in the great gun ban of 1997.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

My first red dot was an Aimpoint with about a 3/4" tube.  Ran it on a S&W 586 in the 1984 season.

 

I built the first high-cap in our section about a month after Para offered their blocky aluminum 45 ACP receiver. (I still remember the accusations I was cheating with that 13 rd mag)

 

I installed a Wilson LEK comp on that gun and used it in the 1987 Nationals. It still had a Bomar rear sight.  I think its still in the gun safe.

 

 

No way - pictures!  

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Although scoped pistols were in use, I thought Barnhart was the first to show up with a c-more red dot on a double stack 38 super in 1992 and pretty much next year everyone had moved to that setup. 

sorry to disappoint  u  but in 1992 80% of shooters in Eu championship used scopes.J.B started  use scope before😉

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, yigal said:

sorry to disappoint  u  but in 1992 80% of shooters in Eu championship used scopes.J.B started  use scope before😉

I know scoped pistols were is use, but I’m referring to c-more red dot and move away from tubes on top of pistols. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...