AF2010 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 So having a new barrel fit should eliminate this problem if done correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, AF2010 said: So having a new barrel fit should eliminate this problem if done correctly? Possibly. It all depends on how much "Meat" in on that portion of the new barrel. If the barrel channel in the frame has been cut back too far then it doesn't matter if you put a new barrel in it or not. You will have to either swap the frame, or weld some material on the barrel. As I said before, this issue can be an expensive fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahub3101 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 I got a new #3 link, installed it, and checked it per Charlie’s excellent instruction. Fits as it should. This gun is very well used, probably more accurately abused and it’s been awesome. If it was fit wrong I think it would have broken long ago. Let’s not turn this into an STI bash. Thanks again for all the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superslowmo Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 On 2/21/2019 at 12:10 PM, CHA-LEE said: When you replace the link you can easily test it to see if the barrel is bottoming out on the frame when fully unlocked (as it should) or if its bottoming out on the link (which it shouldn't). This can easily be tested by taking the slide stop pin out, then reinstalling it so the pin portion is installed properly in the frame and link, but the lever portion is hanging down towards the trigger guard. Then place the tip of the barrel against a solid object, like a bench, then push the gun forward until it stops and hold it in that position. This will generate the correct barrel unlock & bottom out position scenario. While holding the gun forward firmly in the unlock & bottom out position, rotate the slide stop pin by pushing the "Lever" portion front to back. If the barrel has been fit to the frame properly, there should be ZERO resistance while moving the lever portion of the slide stop front to back. If there is resistance while moving the slide stop lever and that resistance corresponds to how much forward pressure you push the gun into the bench, then the barrel is bottoming out on the barrel link instead of the frame. The barrel bottoming out on the link in this scenario is the #1 reason why barrel links break. To fix this issue you need to weld more material to either the barrel or frame where they should bottom out against one another. Sometimes this isn't possible and a new barrel or new frame is needed to fix the issue and both parts must be fit properly to one another. This is a fantastic piece of info. I checked my SA RO Elite Target using this method and it indicates that SA built mine right (the lever swings freely). I'm a happy man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterCoffee Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Thanks to CHA-LEE for his elucidating and helpful posts in this thread. Wish this forum had a "Like" button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenida Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 barrel is probably poorly fit to the gun, it will break again. I would not replace anything until you know for sure the barrel is fit. Hand cycling the gun will not show signs or poor fit so you will most likely need someone with experience in this matter. more info on barrel fitting and signs of poor barrel fitting: http://www.schuemann.com/Documentation.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) On 2/21/2019 at 2:10 PM, CHA-LEE said: When you replace the link you can easily test it to see if the barrel is bottoming out on the frame when fully unlocked (as it should) or if its bottoming out on the link (which it shouldn't). This can easily be tested by taking the slide stop pin out, then reinstalling it so the pin portion is installed properly in the frame and link, but the lever portion is hanging down towards the trigger guard. Then place the tip of the barrel against a solid object, like a bench, then push the gun forward until it stops and hold it in that position. This will generate the correct barrel unlock & bottom out position scenario. While holding the gun forward firmly in the unlock & bottom out position, rotate the slide stop pin by pushing the "Lever" portion front to back. If the barrel has been fit to the frame properly, there should be ZERO resistance while moving the lever portion of the slide stop front to back. If there is resistance while moving the slide stop lever and that resistance corresponds to how much forward pressure you push the gun into the bench, then the barrel is bottoming out on the barrel link instead of the frame. The barrel bottoming out on the link in this scenario is the #1 reason why barrel links break. To fix this issue you need to weld more material to either the barrel or frame where they should bottom out against one another. Sometimes this isn't possible and a new barrel or new frame is needed to fix the issue and both parts must be fit properly to one another. Charlie, very good overall advice. Just a couple things. I don't think failure of this test is conclusive evidence of a poorly fit/timed barrel. Schuemann covers in their timing document how a perfectly timed gun can fail this test. http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/webfile_1911_Timing.pdf Also, a poorly timed barrel isn't actually bottoming on the link. At least, not just the link, it's still bottoming on the frame just at the wrong spot. Check the measurements and you'll see that unless a gun is crazy (I mean crazy) out of spec, it's not possible for the barrel to travel such that the link goes 'parallel' and arrests the rearward travel. I'm not sure this is what you're saying, but 'bottoming on the link' kind of makes it sound like it. What happens is the barrel contacts the top of the frame at the rails which stops the downward travel, which then stresses the link as it's the only thing there to stop the rearward component of the barrel's inertia. If a barrel is known to be contacting the VIS and the clearance between the top of the barrel and slide is proper you're good to go even if it fails the simple test. Edited February 25, 2019 by theWacoKid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, theWacoKid said: Schuemann covers in their timing document how a perfectly timed gun can fail this test. http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/webfile_1911_Timing.pdf I wonder if that is purely theoretical criticism or something that they have actually seen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: I wonder if that is purely theoretical criticism or something that they have actually seen? Probably a little bit of both. I've timed my guns and confirmed they are all good yet they don't necessarily pass this test with flying colors. My point is the test tells you something, but it doesn't automatically tell you everything. When I started fitting barrels I referenced the Schuemann documents heavily. On the whole they are very good, very detailed, and very accurate. Yes, you can do things a little different and be fine, but I think their track record with barrels and fitting gives them very good credibility and following their procedures has left me no reason to doubt their knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 3 hours ago, theWacoKid said: Probably a little bit of both. I've timed my guns and confirmed they are all good yet they don't necessarily pass this test with flying colors. My point is the test tells you something, but it doesn't automatically tell you everything. When I started fitting barrels I referenced the Schuemann documents heavily. On the whole they are very good, very detailed, and very accurate. Yes, you can do things a little different and be fine, but I think their track record with barrels and fitting gives them very good credibility and following their procedures has left me no reason to doubt their knowledge. Sounds reasonable, what did you think of their advice and cautions about bore cleaning? Some of it (cleaning solutions damaging bores) runs contrary to what is claimed by manufacturers of cleaning products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 14 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: Sounds reasonable, what did you think of their advice and cautions about bore cleaning? Some of it (cleaning solutions damaging bores) runs contrary to what is claimed by manufacturers of cleaning products. That is one of the reasons I use carbon steel barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 18 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: Sounds reasonable, what did you think of their advice and cautions about bore cleaning? Some of it (cleaning solutions damaging bores) runs contrary to what is claimed by manufacturers of cleaning products. I'm sure some of the harsh chemicals out there are not good for certain barrels. I really don't do any cleaning of my pistol bores and just make sure to keep my chamber clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF2010 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 On 2/22/2019 at 10:52 AM, CHA-LEE said: Possibly. It all depends on how much "Meat" in on that portion of the new barrel. If the barrel channel in the frame has been cut back too far then it doesn't matter if you put a new barrel in it or not. You will have to either swap the frame, or weld some material on the barrel. As I said before, this issue can be an expensive fix. Well I contacted STI to get their opinion after my Trojan failed the test you mentioned. They immediately requested I send the gun in so they can "look at it" they sent the shipping label and a note to send inside the gun box that says "inspect and re link" I guess they think a new link will fix it. : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJinPA Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 You will have to either swap the frame, or weld some material on the barrel. Would a shok buff be an option over welding if this were the case?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yigal Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, MJinPA said: Would a shok buff be an option over welding if this were the case? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk there is no connection between these two things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MJinPA said: Would a shok buff be an option over welding if this were the case? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk No. A shock buff limits the rearward travel of the slide. It has nothing to do with how far the barrel travels rearward within the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 7 hours ago, AF2010 said: Well I contacted STI to get their opinion after my Trojan failed the test you mentioned. They immediately requested I send the gun in so they can "look at it" they sent the shipping label and a note to send inside the gun box that says "inspect and re link" I guess they think a new link will fix it. : ( I can't speak for STI's ability to build 1911's properly. But it doesn't set a good example by getting the gun in that condition in the first place. Throwing a longer link in there can resolve the issue of the barrel bottoming out on the link instead of the frame. But doing that also increases the chance of the barrel then locking up on the link instead of the lower barrel lugs when the barrel is in full battery. If the link is too long it can also cause a timing issue when the barrel unlocks it isn't pulled down far enough to fully disengage the upper lugs and you end up with peened or damaged upper lugs in either the slide or the barrel. Unfortunately there are several "Lazy" ways to address this exact issue, like putting a longer link in it. But those "Lazy" fixes are rarely an effective long term fix which don't end up causing other issues. I also don't want to throw STI under the bus. From a customer service and remote troubleshooting perspective they have to give the issue some type of failure description and potential fix so that their team has some clue as to what to look at when the gun comes back for service. My day job has me troubleshooting complex electro-mechanical devices remotely and I have lost count of how many times the onsite service engineer explained a failure mode of a mechanical component completely wrong. For many of those cases it wasn't until I was onsite myself to see the situation first hand before the root cause of the failure could be accurately identified and resolved. Basically put, don't give the initial remote troubleshooting diagnosis much priority. Wait until they get it in house and look at it first hand to resolve the issue before you pass judgement. The good news is that STI seems to have turned a new leaf when it comes to gun build quality and customer service. They seem to have embraced the fact that their quality had slipped in the past and have made it a priority to resolve those quality issues. This is a good thing for all STI customers. I say give them a chance to make it right and withhold your judgement until you get the gun back from repair. Don't be surprised if they swap the barrel and or the frame. I doubt they would go through the trouble to weld and remachine these parts verses just replacing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF2010 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 8:59 AM, CHA-LEE said: I can't speak for STI's ability to build 1911's properly. But it doesn't set a good example by getting the gun in that condition in the first place. Throwing a longer link in there can resolve the issue of the barrel bottoming out on the link instead of the frame. But doing that also increases the chance of the barrel then locking up on the link instead of the lower barrel lugs when the barrel is in full battery. If the link is too long it can also cause a timing issue when the barrel unlocks it isn't pulled down far enough to fully disengage the upper lugs and you end up with peened or damaged upper lugs in either the slide or the barrel. Unfortunately there are several "Lazy" ways to address this exact issue, like putting a longer link in it. But those "Lazy" fixes are rarely an effective long term fix which don't end up causing other issues. I also don't want to throw STI under the bus. From a customer service and remote troubleshooting perspective they have to give the issue some type of failure description and potential fix so that their team has some clue as to what to look at when the gun comes back for service. My day job has me troubleshooting complex electro-mechanical devices remotely and I have lost count of how many times the onsite service engineer explained a failure mode of a mechanical component completely wrong. For many of those cases it wasn't until I was onsite myself to see the situation first hand before the root cause of the failure could be accurately identified and resolved. Basically put, don't give the initial remote troubleshooting diagnosis much priority. Wait until they get it in house and look at it first hand to resolve the issue before you pass judgement. The good news is that STI seems to have turned a new leaf when it comes to gun build quality and customer service. They seem to have embraced the fact that their quality had slipped in the past and have made it a priority to resolve those quality issues. This is a good thing for all STI customers. I say give them a chance to make it right and withhold your judgement until you get the gun back from repair. Don't be surprised if they swap the barrel and or the frame. I doubt they would go through the trouble to weld and remachine these parts verses just replacing them. Well, I got the gun back today with a new barrel that seems to be properly fit this time and a new magazine included free of charge!! I will get the gun to the range ASAP to confirm function but so far I am extremely pleased. They were very helpful and polite along the way also which is a big deal to me. Above all id like to thank CHA-LEE... If it wasn't for your knowledge on the subject I would have never known my gun had problems until the worst possible time I'm sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I am glad that STI got your blaster fixed up properly. That is good news for all STI gun owners!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salsantini Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) Good that STI took care of this. I have a barrel link kit on hand from EGW just in case this happens. http://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/barrel-link-kit-6-pcs/ Edited April 4, 2019 by Salsantini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 48 minutes ago, Salsantini said: Good that STI took care of this. I have a barrel link kit on hand from EGW just in case this happens. http://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/barrel-link-kit-6-pcs/ In case what happens? If the barrel's not fit properly, swapping out the link isn't going to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowlmouths Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 On 2/25/2019 at 2:56 PM, theWacoKid said: Charlie, very good overall advice. Just a couple things. I don't think failure of this test is conclusive evidence of a poorly fit/timed barrel. Schuemann covers in their timing document how a perfectly timed gun can fail this test. http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/webfile_1911_Timing.pdf Also, a poorly timed barrel isn't actually bottoming on the link. At least, not just the link, it's still bottoming on the frame just at the wrong spot. Check the measurements and you'll see that unless a gun is crazy (I mean crazy) out of spec, it's not possible for the barrel to travel such that the link goes 'parallel' and arrests the rearward travel. I'm not sure this is what you're saying, but 'bottoming on the link' kind of makes it sound like it. What happens is the barrel contacts the top of the frame at the rails which stops the downward travel, which then stresses the link as it's the only thing there to stop the rearward component of the barrel's inertia. If a barrel is known to be contacting the VIS and the clearance between the top of the barrel and slide is proper you're good to go even if it fails the simple test. Excellent document from Schuemann. Thanks for sharing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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