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gerritm

650 tilting 9mm Cases again

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I have been fighting this for awhile. It got better where only maybe 1 out of 10 would tilt, but it would come and go sometimes 5 out of 10. Blamed it different range brass several other things, but started about a year ago. Has gotten worse lately. I have removed all the extra enhancements, back to original setup trying to find the reason.

 

So last weekend I took the shell plate off to clean & lube. After reinstall when I tighten the center bolt to where it just has a slight amount of resistance like I always do, it wouldn't always rotate completely to next opening. Called Dillon & they recommended replacing the ring indexer & spring. Which they sent out. Took everything apart, cleaned all, & replaced the ring indexer. I have the alignment tool. Set it up to align per instructions and it would not. Rubbed on the inner part of the primer punch opening no matter how I adjusted and tightened the screws holding the platform.  I have done this before with no trouble. 

 

Called Dillon again and they are sending out a replacement platform, but said if that didn't work I would need to send the unit in. which, tired of this. Have replaced almost everything else chasing this in the last 6 months. Dillon Tech has been very helpful.

 

Question is, how much play is in the ram/platform mount? Pins? Etc. There seems like there is more than should be in mine. Maybe have 50K rounds loaded? Something could have bent? Any ideas?

 

gerritm

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I realize you've been fighting this issue for some time and understand the problem backwards/forwards, however for those of us seeing this for the first time, only seeing 'tilting 9mm case' in the title doesn't really provide a good description of what the issue is and where it's occurring in your rig.

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When the case goes into the first opening in the shell plate to be deprimed and sized.  Using a Lee u die. It tilts just enough that you have reach around and pull it forward to get it to go into the die. Have replaced all of the parts that affect this. When no case in primer position it does not do it.  Adjusted and lubed all parts per dillon specs. Have tried different tool heads including the one that the pins screw into. 

 

Seems like when you seat the primer there is play in the platform/ram pushing forward on the arm. Always seats primer to correct depth. 

 

Gerritm 

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So is the case not being seated all the way into the first position so it hangs up when you try to deprime? Do you have any after market parts on the 650?

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Looks like the case goes all they way in and seats. Casefeed slide appears to seat the case all the way. It is not tilted at this point.

 

Did have all the usual upgrades, bearing kit, roller cam pin, etc. When this started I removed them and went back to square one. Changed the ejector spring. Slide Is not hitting it. Really have replaced all the parts that affect this initial action. 

 

This has been an ongoing problem for about a year. Comes and goes. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 tilt. Then after removing and cleaning/lubing the shell plate it started again where it is almost every case. Did not change anything else. That is when I called Dillon for help again.

 

gerritm

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3 hours ago, gerritm said:

Looks like the case goes all they way in and seats. Casefeed slide appears to seat the case all the way. It is not tilted at this point.

 

Did have all the usual upgrades, bearing kit, roller cam pin, etc. When this started I removed them and went back to square one. Changed the ejector spring. Slide Is not hitting it. Really have replaced all the parts that affect this initial action. 

 

This has been an ongoing problem for about a year. Comes and goes. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 tilt. Then after removing and cleaning/lubing the shell plate it started again where it is almost every case. Did not change anything else. That is when I called Dillon for help again.

 

gerritm

If you could take a picture of the tilted case that would be helpful. When I was having problems with 650 it was because the timing of the shell plate was off. So the case wasn't lining up with the die and would hang up on the side of it. I ended up fixing this problem by adjusting my roller cam. 

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Already adjusted the cam pin. If you look in the original post it will not align using the Dillon alignment tool. Something either in the frame, arm, platform, or arm is off. bent, or worn.

 

gerritm

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9 hours ago, gerritm said:

If you look in the original post

could be me, but I'm not seeing any pictures from the 'original post' in this thread.

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If you have used the alignment tool before then you know that the only "adjustment" (I use that term loosely) you can do comes from rotating the platform against the "slop" inherent in the two mounting bolts.

 

There is not a lot of movement available and tightening the bolts tends to move the platform back to its inherent neutral location which is likely a little different location from where it needs to be for the priming ram to be centered. It can be a little frustrating getting it aligned. You have to torque on the platform to keep it aligned as you tighten down the mounting bolts.

 

 

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Installed the new platform kit with a new alignment tool. After talking to Dillon tech they said it will almost never center perfectly and may rub slightly when correctly aligned. Got it to this point and put everything back together.

 

Unit is functioning OK, but randomly the cases still tilt going into the first die. May do 5 or 6 sometimes 10 and several will tilt or you can feel them catch as they go into the Lee die. Tried adjusting the die up & down to see if it matters and it didn't seem to change anything. Primers are seating fine, everything else is good.

 

Pretty much have replaced all of the user type parts.

 

Something has changed, worn out, or bent or I am missing something. This 650 worked perfect for 20K rounds or so. Going to call Dillon and send it back to see if they can figure it out.

 

gerritm

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When my 550 was doing this it ended up being the frame was worn out.

Sent it in to Dillon they replaced the press. It was 30 ish years old and had been fighting

alignment issues for some time.

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2 hours ago, gerritm said:

Something has changed, worn out, or bent or I am missing something. This 650 worked perfect for 20K rounds or so. Going to call Dillon and send it back to see if they can figure it out.

 

If it helps I actually wore out the plastic shuttle that slides the brass into the shell plate. This cause some alignment and case feeding issues. Additionally I always found the Lee sizing dies (both std and U) in 9mm to not run as smooth on progressive presses. The Dillon die has a bigger bell and seems to work better excepting the brass into it.

 

 

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Replaced the shuttle slide as it comes with the platform kit. I have run these dies since day one due to shooting Glocks and having had resizing issues. Never have any sizing issues now. I could deal with that, but the case is not making it into the die. I have even polished the bell of the die. I know I don't have pictures, but sometimes there is quite a tilt to move with your finger. sometimes it just catches slightly going in, but does go in. Then you will run 8 or 10 perfectly into the die. I have tried it with the Dillon dies that came with and doesn't matter.

 

Went back and tried the bearing kit & roller on the cam pin. Smoother, but still no real difference. 

 

gerritm

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I assume you’ve adjusted the shuttle so it’s tight against the brass when it’s (the brass) in the shell plate? The reason I ask is I had a similar problem as my shuttle got older. I also had the shuttle spring break, which caused some problems. 

 

BTW I sold my 650 and purchased a 1050. It does run much better and faster, but it has its own set of quirks to deal with. The one I’m dealing with now is WSPs do not feed as well as Federal primers. Love the hobby keeps me occupied. 

 

When you figure it out it will be one of those forehead slapping things. 

Edited by HesedTech

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One of Dillon's suggestions is adjusting the shuttle & not over adjusting it where it bounces the case back. I have played with it and found the happy medium but doesn't change the problem. Called Dillion yesterday & it is going back. See what they say.

 

gerritm

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Do you know of some one with a dial indicator ?check the "play" in the ram to frame fit.

when i gave Dillon that measurement they determined the frame was worn. Just last night

went over to a friend who has been having issues to measure his 650 his has over .025 play.

He will be calling Dillon today.

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Is it possible for you to post a few pics of the problem?

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9 hours ago, HesedTech said:

The one I’m dealing with now is WSPs do not feed as well as Federal primers.

 

Winchesters are frequently slightly out of round, and the 1050 notices this a little more than the 650 did.

 

CCIs go through a 1050 just as well as federals, and they’re cheap and easy to find. If you don’t run “princess” level striker/hammer springs they work great.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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My Dillon is only 3 yrs old, it's been doing exact same thing as yours, my hand has to push shell jus a tad to delude into deprrime die, So use to doing this, its fine except now I want to add a Mark 7, this is going to be a problem, One thing we have in common were both using a Lee Depriming die, I'd going to try a Dillon and see.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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I augered/belled out the bottom of my U die slightly so it didn't catch the case. Did it to all my pistol U dies, 9mm, 40, and 45. Seems to work.

 

Also, you can move the powder measure to pos3 and put a Dillon sizing die in pos1 and the Udie into pos2.

 

Either one of these fixes will work.

jj

Edited by RiggerJJ

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I actually did the same thing to my U-die when I polished it. But that is a band aid fix & it shouldn't be tilting like it does and it didn't do it before. I am tired of band aids fixes. That is why it is going back to Dillon. I have a MBF in position 3.

 

Really like the 650 & going from a Lee Pro it is like upgrading to a Rolls. 20 or 30K rounds with no problems, when I first got it. Have been fighting this off & on for awhile. I load 9mm for 3 of us that shoot. Ran about 20K last year and running a lot more this year.

 

gerritm

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7 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

 

If you don’t run “princess” level striker/hammer springs they work great.

 

 

My Stock 2s are a bit of a princess. 

 

😳

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7 hours ago, rancher5 said:

My Dillon is only 3 yrs old, it's been doing exact same thing as yours, my hand has to push shell jus a tad to delude into deprrime die, So use to doing this, its fine except now I want to add a Mark 7, this is going to be a problem, One thing we have in common were both using a Lee Depriming die, I'd going to try a Dillon and see.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

 

I added the Mark 7 Pro to my 650 and in the end the $2,500 would have been better spent getting an automated 1050. The best I could run ammo with the 650/Mark 7 was 900 RPH and process at 1500. For the same amount of overall money my 1050 with Ammobot loads easily at 1600 RPH and processes at 2500. It could go faster except I haven’t pushed it. I ordered everything through ImmortoBot, great guys and service. 

 

And what a great hobby!

Edited by HesedTech

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1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

 

My Stock 2s are a bit of a princess. 

 

😳

 

Put an Xtreme Medium hammer spring in it.

 

7lb double action that eats everything made. Including CCI Magnum primers.

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6 hours ago, gerritm said:

Really like the 650 & going from a Lee Pro it is like upgrading to a Rolls.

 

Don’t spend any time behind a 1050 then. Or your 650 will feel like a toy. A toy, with a very heavy handle.

 

6 hours ago, gerritm said:

I load 9mm for 3 of us that shoot. Ran about 20K last year and running a lot more this year.

 

gerritm

 

Damn dude. I take it back. Sell your rehab’d 650 when you get it back and buy a used 1050. You’ll be in love with every spent on the upgrade.

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