STI Staccato-P

[Yixo]

I have been looking for a compact "duty" gun. I just noticed the release of the STI Staccato P; and I am liking the idea of it. However, I have never shot an STI in my life, and I have heard mixed reviews on the reliability. Would using that as a duty gun be a horrible idea, or has the reliability on the guns increased?

[dthomas1003]

What is your motivation for carrying a compact on duty versus a full size? I carry an Atlas Titan Operator on duty and love it. It's a full-size gun. I personally decided not to carry an STI based on the reliability and customer service issues they have been having. My only worry with carrying the Atlas gun is if I am involved in an on duty shooting, my very expensive gun goes into evidence for months and I have to carry a Glock again.

[JLF]

12 hours ago, Yixo said:

I have been looking for a compact "duty" gun. I just noticed the release of the STI Staccato P; and I am liking the idea of it. However, I have never shot an STI in my life, and I have heard mixed reviews on the reliability. Would using that as a duty gun be a horrible idea, or has the reliability on the guns increased?

 

I recommend watching this video: 

Basically, a LEO giving his views of the Staccato-P during SHOT 2019.

[Francesco]

Hello all, my name is Francesco from Italy (just registered to give you my "maybe useless for most people" point of view, about the STI 2011 platform).

 

On the way: apologize about my english, my grammar is terrible; I am perfectly informed about this...

 

This message is a bit long (I did rant on it a bit too) but if you are genuinely interested in the 2011 platform (especially STI), I think will worth to read the whole thing (or at least until the "TUNING PART" and then "escape the rant" ).

 

I am a civilian, no military experience but I do train regularly, and get defensive classes every 1-3 months. I can easily outshoot 90%+ of the "Italian LEOs" (people that DO NOT TRAIN AT ALL) and  "normal military personnels" (special forces are another story OFC, nonetheless i pay for their training too; I hope they would outshoot me big time).

 

I bought and sold many weapons, and used almost every platform that the Italian marked have to offer; I ended focusing on two (pretty much opposite) platforms: 2011 (STI Marauder) and Glock (17-19). 

 

When I acquired the Marauder, it was "tuned for race" (low power factor ammo), with a 15lb hammer spring and 10lb recoil one (slide); RESULT: IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT A STANDARD "B-27 TARGET" AT 25 meters (just over 27 yards). BARELY INSIDE THE SILHOUETTE AT 10m...

The barrel's tenons "disengaged" BEFORE THE BULLET WAS OUT OF THE BARREL (this is why the gun was so imprecise); not "enough pressure" from the springs to keep the tenons locked-on (using FULL POWER AMMO).

The recoil was absurd (with the slide hitting the frame violently), and the gun was basically UNABLE TO FEED FROM A "FULLY LOADED MAGAZINE" (due to the "TO WEAK" 10lb slide spring)...

Don't get me wrong, all this is NORMAL for a "Race Gun"; in competition is normal not to use "a fully loaded magazine" (at least on the 2011 platform - OR... Have a gun that DO NOT LOCK-OPEN WHEN EMPTY) and that "WEAK TUNING" was perfect (probably... ...Never tried my self) for "low power ammunition".

   

   But "Competition Is Not My Cup Of Tea"; so...

 

...I RE-TUNED the gun, using as BASE LINE the "1911 military standard spring weights" (that i was familiar with). I also tested EVERY COMBINATION "IN BETWEEN" from Sport to Military standard; this is what I have found...

 

For my personal STI Marauder 9x21 IMI (that do use a firing pin block "J. Browning ORIGINAL GEOMETRY" standard from STI - MODIFIED FIRING PIN BLOCKs WILL NEED DIFFERENT SPRINGS WEIGHT -), I do use a 23lb WOLFF Chrome-Silicon "Factory Standard" HAMMER spring, in conjunction with a 13lb Wolff "NON progressive" Chrome-Silicon RECOIL spring (with his Wolff "tuned accordingly"  FIRING PIN counter spring - included in the SET -).

 

Now... Reliability (based on my own experience)...

 

Most of the courses I attend, are "2 days with 600-850 bullets fired" (more than less)...

 

   Starting with a CLEAN WEAPON (lubed with a VERY THIN LAYER OF "WEAPON-SHIELD" all over the place - this way there is no "carbon build" ANYWHERE), NO CLEANING

NO RE-LUBING during the course = ZERO MALFUNCTIONS in the last 7900 rounds (more or less). The gun after 800 rounds is ALMOST CLEAN (good ammo + Weapon Shield let me clean the gun with JUST A RAG and few drops of Ballistol...). And now also strip a FULLY LOADED MAGAZINES (with "+1 coil" spring) without any problem.

 

I have also found that, STRANGELY, my Marauder was running (almost flawlessly) with some VERY WEIRD SPRINGs COMBINATIONS (that I was sure would have make the gun "not able to cycle at all" - I guess this is due the "smooth like glass contact surfaces" of the STI action -).

 

"STI guns are unreliable"... ...I bet this statement come from the same kind of people that say "Glock are dangerous pistols" (after shooting them selves in a leg during a cleaning process, of "accidentally discharge the gun in the car WHILE USING A "RIPPED LEATHER HOLSTER" that have never seen a drop of grease/oil/or wax in his 39 years of service... I am getting mad... Stop!). 

 

The 1911/2011 springs are reasonably priced - I MEAN CHEAP - (even the best quality ones, like Wolff or WilsonCombat); THERE ARE NO EXCUSES for "not to try to re-tune a gun", before trash talk ANY brand (just my 50 cent common sense statement). But nowadays there is this "mentality" (very far from me) that ""something MUST be "PERFECT FOR EVERYONE NEEDS" out of the box"" - this is SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE! -. Then...

...We have ALL THOSE "YOU-TUBE EXPERTS" (ONLY few are "the real deal" but others) that CONSTANTLY are "testing" guns with THE LOWER GRADE POSSIBLE AMMUNITIONS, and then bashing "that model/brand" as "trash" because it wasn't running flawlessly "with steel case bullets" or "9.99$ 1000 rounds bulk ammo" (like you use that trash in a "SELF DEFENSE/DUTY GUN"... If someone does; he simply deserve to die... Mad again...). 

 

I am not a Genius (I know this as a fact) but I am not a total ignorant too; if I have been able to make my own gun run this good (not only reliable but PRECISE, FAST, FLAT SHOOTING, "TWO BULLETS ONE HOLE FOLLOW THROUGH", FANTASTIC IN GENERAL - all this with LIMITED TRAINING -), I don't see why ANY OTHER STI SHOULD PERFORM ANY LESS. 

   - Mine is NO LONGER a "Race Gun"; it is a "Go To War Gun" -.

 

I bought mine new at half of his price tag (thanx to a friend gun shop owner)... This is probably the biggest downside of the brand (at least in Italy... Marauder 3'600+ Euro - over 4k Dollars - from "Bignami"... Insane...).

 

Also the "2011 platform" (any brand) do not digest "SHORTer OUT OF SPEC BULLETS"; I have made some my self to try out, and the Marauder jammed with a short bullet "stuck between the upper lip of the barrel and the magazine, barely touching the ramp with the belly, or not touching it at all"... When I moved the same (5) bullets on the

G-19, the gun cycled and fired them all (they was out of spec more than 1,2mm on the short side). I haven't found any similar "AOUT OF SPEC BULLETs" in the last (almost) 8000 rounds that I have shoot from my Marauder (1/3 of which was my reloading). I do consider this as "NON EXISTENT PROBLEM".

 

 

My Marauder trigger is 3.7lb (more or less), smooth like glass, LESS THAN 2mm total (0,07 inches, sorry i don't know "about fractions") - 1mm PRE-TRAVEL + 0,9mm comprensive of "BRAKE + OVER-TRAVEL"; anyone can understand that THIS IS AN ADVANTAGE for "PRECISION SHOOTING" (it make your life VERY easy - probably is "beyond cheating" -). 

I have limited time to train, and limited resources; I admit that I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SHOOT A GLOCK AS GOOD AS THE MARAUDER (I do train with both; but "Fiat and Lamborghini will NEVER be the same". PERIOD...).

 

   If you are of the school of: - "7 YARDS SHOOTING CAPABILITY IS ALL YOU NEED" - there is not much to say... GET A GLOCK (or any similar gun). 

...If you want a gun that can EASILY MAKE YOU ABLE to make an HEAD SHOOT at 25m (27+yards) or "hit and hunter that is shooting you from 150m away"... Then INVEST IN  STI (or any other 2011/1911 pistol, or CZ-75, Tanfoglio... Whatever QUALITY ONE you can effort and like to shoot...).

 

I am not a troll, not payed by STI (I contacted them once to ask about the weight of the original springs of the Marauder, and they answered in about 24-48H, very kindly; this is all the relation I had with them). I enjoy my Marauder (that look like an "East Europe black market gun"), and really hope that "more people will start to use them for DUTY and SELF DEFENSE  - Because Your Life Is What Matter The Most And Any Advantage In A FireFight Is WELCOME - (Sun Tsu would agree with me Big Time).

 

Hope this post will help someone out.

 

 

P.S.

In Italy we don't have "bulk ammo" (only "quality one"); no idea if the same kind of results is achievable using "cheap ammo"...  

 

P.P.S.

A person that do use any weapon for DUTY or SELF DEFENSE and "do not keep those weapons PERFECTLY CLEAN"; is NOT Trustworthy!

 

 Link photo of my STI Marauder:    https://ibb.co/9gW1tKT (edited link)

Edited May 13, 2019 by Francesco

[muncie21]

@Francescothanks for taking the time to write a well written post, sharing your thoughts and experiences.  It's very nice to hear that a gun manufactured in Texas is liked and appreciated in Italy, which I'm told has an area called the valley of guns (or gun valley) where craftsmen have built guns for decades.

[021411]

On 2/10/2019 at 6:49 PM, Yixo said:

I have been looking for a compact "duty" gun. I just noticed the release of the STI Staccato P; and I am liking the idea of it. However, I have never shot an STI in my life, and I have heard mixed reviews on the reliability. Would using that as a duty gun be a horrible idea, or has the reliability on the guns increased?

I know this post is a few months old but do you shoot a 1911 platform often? Nothing continuous training and muscle memory can't fix but I've seen way to many videos of traffic stops with shootings that happen in a blink of an eye. Even though I'm proficient in the platform (safety manipulation) I prefer a duty weapon without a manual safety. And yes, I'm a 1911 junkie. Barrel length to me for duty doesn't matter as I carry an RMR on my G19. If I'm having to actively engage human targets over 25 yards I'm unlocking my SBR from the rack.

 

Anyway the main thing is making sure your gun works with the mags you have and the ammo you will use for duty. Running "flawless" 500 rounds of ball ammo and calling it "good" can mean squat with duty ammo.

 

[Francesco]

Hello @muncie21, to be totally honest, it is the first time I hear about "the valley of the guns" (or gun valley) but i guess it is somewhere between "Lombardia and Veneto", where most Italian guns manufactories are located (just few hours driving from my place) but I can be wrong; I will dig about it in the next days...

   ...I will post the location, in case i will find out; thank you for the heads up. It is really funny to me discover stuff like this about my own country, from a foreign person; it is always intriguing when happens.

 

About STI, every "competitive shooter" here know and like ("Love", most of the times) the brand but it is ALMOST unknown for the "average shooter" (including 90+% of LEOs and probably military personnel too - not sure about that, many things are changed in the military lately -).

   The first reason is, RIGHT NOW, in Italy, average people struggle to get to the end of the month (shooters make no exception); STI ARE EXPANSIVE PISTOLS - especially here - (people turn their heads as soon as they read the price-tag; way before to understand what they are locking at...). 

 

   I never "explain anything" about my gun to "random people"; this way most of them have never figured out that "I outshoot them ONLY BECAUSE THE GUN" (some people deserve it).

Some times, if I like the person, I feel sad to see that "sad looking on the face" (of someone that give 110% but nonetheless still behind); at that point, at the first pause (with the instructor's blessing) I let the guy/man/old man try out my Marauder (and the instructors usually let him try their 1911, WilsonC., Ed B., ecc)... ...Usually those people are hooked forever (keeping a striker-fire pistol as a back-up - exactly like I do and start saving for "something else" -).

   Most of them choose the classic 1911 single stack 45cal; very few understand "the Potential of the 2011 platform" (in the last 4 classes I don't recall "one single 2011 user" except me... And I have met only another "STI user" in the last two years during "defensive courses"). Even some instructors do not understand that I am using a "9mm double stack pistol" (this tell you a lot of the Ignorance on my country), bashing me out for 2 whole days (using me as example for the others students) as "an user of an inadeguate, outdated, not reliable, OLD gun platform" (that is usually the moment when I realize "why that class was so cheap"). At the end of the day; I am always the one that "laugh for last", faster and with tighter groups - at that point those "instructors" (that I will never train with again) usually stop talking to me completely (because I can't stop laughing between my teeth on their faces... And they struggle to understand why my gun never jam, and my groups are usually HALF SIZE respect of those of their best students (and more we shoot, more people get tired, more their groups get larger and mine shrink... I usually DO NOT SHOOT outside classes - I try to avoid "normal Italian ranges"; this is why my group shrinks during classes MORE AND MORE...). - I am perfectly aware that this result is because "MY MARAUDER IS WAY SUPERIOR TO ANY STRIKER-FIRE PISTOL".  but I'd rather die than tell them the truth. Yeah, I know; I am not a great person ... 

 

P.S.

I know more than one shooter that I struggle to keep-up with, even when they are using a stock Glock but all of them train at least 2-3 days at week (at least); so I still happy with my results

 

 

 

[Francesco]

57 minutes ago, 021411 said:

I know this post is a few months old but do you shoot a 1911 platform often? Nothing continuous training and muscle memory can't fix but I've seen way to many videos of traffic stops with shootings that happen in a blink of an eye. Even though I'm proficient in the platform (safety manipulation) I prefer a duty weapon without a manual safety. And yes, I'm a 1911 junkie. Barrel length to me for duty doesn't matter as I carry an RMR on my G19. If I'm having to actively engage human targets over 25 yards I'm unlocking my SBR from the rack.

 

Anyway the main thing is making sure your gun works with the mags you have and the ammo you will use for duty. Running "flawless" 500 rounds of ball ammo and calling it "good" can mean squat with duty ammo.

 

 

Hello @021411 I had this conversation already with several LEOs (mostly "Carabinieri") that usually are using the "Beretta92 FS" (your "Beretta M9" if you are in the USA)... Also had this same conversation with some friends one in the military and one private contractor.

   ...Any "NON-SAFETY GUN", WITHOUT ANY DOUBTS, will avoid problems if you have to shoot "point blank near by" (especially respect to the M9 and his "upside-down safety lever on the slide"... You Know...). Even more if you have a rifle in addiction to the gun, a Glock will be probably the best choice (for most people at least).  

 

I never have to think about "the safety button"; my thumb "have a life of his own"...

...Still I AM NOT A LEO. 

   

   On DUTY is different. Some times you are forced to do stuff that you are "not comfortable with" (I mean: "you feel inside your self, that YOU SHOULDN'T BE THERE"... "IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT"...) but ON DUTY YOU DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY TO CHOSE... ...In that kind of situations, I AM NOT EVEN SURE IF "I WILL HIT THE SAFETY BUTTON MY SELF"... This is why a "Glock like pistol" make sense...

 

The more you train, and more experience on the field you will have, the less the platform will matter to you...

I would NEVER consider the "Staccato-C" (single stack 9mm 8 rounds mag) for self defense (i will never buy one - NOT EVEN FOR FREE -) but I would like A LOT the

Staccato-P (18, 21, 26 rounds mags) for my self...

 

[Squirrelcanshoot]

Does the staccato p fit in a idpa box?

[Matt1911]

Got my hands on a Staccato P today at my LGS. I walked away without it only because I don't really have a need for it, but damn I sure do want it.

[Yixo]

I apologize for the delay in the response; it has been a while since I have checked this thread. The main reason I like the compact duty idea is because I have smaller hands/frame and that seems to feel more natural to me. Don't get me wrong, I shoot a shadow 2 in production, so I am used to a heavier/bigger gun, but it is not exactly my preferred. 

 

I have shot the 1911 platform a little bit, but I do not have a lot of experience with it. I grew up shooting CZ's, so I am used to the manual safety controls and etc. Due to that I am tempted towards the CZ P01. I wish I found Glocks to be more comfortable, because that would be an easy decision, but they have always felt so blocky to me. 

 

I am open to ideas outside of the Staccato-P obviously; just browsing the market. 

[ClayBuster]

17 hours ago, Yixo said:

I am tempted towards the CZ P01

 

If you can handle the P-01 the CZ SP-01 Tactical should be fine as well.