Virginia Count Stage Penalty

[patdeberry]

Situation:  Virginia count stage.  Buzzer goes off, shooter engages targets and comes to the last one.  Fires the first round and bang.  Pulls the trigger for the second round and gets a click.  No swib, just a bad round, bad primer, etc.  Decides not to reload on the clock and take the miss.  What is the penalty?

[RJH]

Assuming he hit the targets witj his other shots, 1 miss

[teros135]

No specific penalty, other than the Mike for the last shot.  

[Lastcat]

25 minutes ago, patdeberry said:

Situation:  Virginia count stage.  Buzzer goes off, shooter engages targets and comes to the last one.  Fires the first round and bang.  Pulls the trigger for the second round and gets a click.  No swib, just a bad round, bad primer, etc.  Decides not to reload on the clock and take the miss.  What is the penalty?

 

1 Mike

 

He engaged with at least 1 round (as per 10.2.7), why he stopped, who knows. He could have at least gained some points if he reloaded and shot. But now he is down 10 points.

 

Score the target, then 1 mike and no procedural. 

[Poppa Bear]

1 Mike.  Unless this was a very quick Virginia stage it would have made sense to rack the slide for a quick shot, unless he was shooting a 6 shot revolver then it might have cost him to much time to load a new moon clip.  Because nothing exited the barrel it does not count as a shot so there would not be an extra shot penalty.

[HCH]

^yes

[teros135]

On classifiers these days it usually doesn't help to reload, or even to rack & shoot, to make up a lost shot, unless you're *really* fast. 

[nasty618]

11 hours ago, Lastcat said:

He could have at least gained some points if he reloaded and shot

 

He would have likely lost points since he already "clicked" once... then he needs to assess, react, reload and fire the make up shot (has to be an alpha) in under 1.5-2 seconds (hard to tell exact number without knowing the stage and HF).  It doesnt make sense to reload and shoot that last shot - you're hurting your score.

 

10 hours ago, teros135 said:

On classifiers these days it usually doesn't help to reload, or even to rack & shoot, to make up a lost shot, unless you're *really* fast.

 

Yep. It's simple math really.  Divide 1 point by HF.  Then, in this case, 10xResult (avoid the miss penalty) + 5xResult (assuming the make up was an A)

 

Lets say this was a 5HF stage = .2 sec per point.  10 x 0.2 + 5 x 0.2 = 3 sec.  

Lets say this was an 8HF stage = .125 sec per point.  10 x 0.125 + 5 x 0.125 = 1.875 sec

[Lastcat]

3 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

He would have likely lost points since he already "clicked" once... then he needs to assess, react, reload and fire the make up shot (has to be an alpha) in under 1.5-2 seconds (hard to tell exact number without knowing the stage and HF).  It doesnt make sense to reload and shoot that last shot - you're hurting your score.

 

We really don't have the full WSB. Gun was up, pointing at a target, pulls trigger, click. Rack fast as you safely can, keep gun on target, pull trigger. Everyone is going to make that choice on their own. It's a scenario each competitor has to decide the best action. 

 

Points/Time = ? 1 less mike or time plus/minus 5 or -10 points, do it, don't do it, math, should I rack/reload? etc.... Maybe he was running a perfect stage and it really wasn't going to hurt to rack or reload. We don't know.

 

But, here's a point. Say a comp. would usually stop after a miss fire, bad primer, etc. It's an established habit, in some scenarios it could be the right choice. Say they have 3 targets to go, gets a click on the third to last target, has usually stopped himself whenever this happens. But realizes and forgets (we all have or will do this) they still had 2 more hidden targets to go.

 

In my case, I continue out of habit, so I don't create a bad habit I later have to break. It's how we all decide how to handle every Stage we run. I've seen a competitor unload a full mag on a 15yd popper. Fine, go for it, do what you like. Some competitors I've shot with don't approve their score/time and could care less, some are really pushing for the higher bracket and take the Ipad from your hand.

 

I've had a 6 Proc. 6 Mikes at a stage where I was walking backwards and shooting at targets to the right, when I went to turn to the left, I realized I moved outside the shooting area on the 4th shot. I didn't give up, just finished the stage, with 12 targets to go. I learned something new that day. In the heat of the moment, we try to make the right choice, that works best for us.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Lastcat

[nasty618]

1 hour ago, Lastcat said:

Rack fast as you safely can, keep gun on target, pull trigger. Everyone is going to make that choice on their own. It's a scenario each competitor has to decide the best action

Points/Time = ? 1 less mike or time plus/minus 5 or -10 points, do it, don't do it, math, should I rack/reload? etc.... Maybe he was running a perfect stage and it really wasn't going to hurt to rack or reload. We don't know

 

Of course. What we do know is that we could use a bit of simple math during stage planning to make sure that decision is a good one, rather than rely on a gut feeling.  If you know or can estimate the HF for the stage, you can then calculate how much it would cost (and if it makes sense) to make up any shot, ultimately resulting in a better strategy for the stage.  

[Poppa Bear]

To make up a shot, yes.  But to rack and chamber a new round should be automatic.  The OP was last shot.  If it had been 2nd 3rd or whatever shot other than last I think we all would have racked and continued on with the stage without any consideration of is it worth it, to include making up the shot on the effected target.

[happygunner77]

I've always thought about it if it was worth to fix the problem vs taking a mike

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by happygunner77

[NickBlasta]

6 hours ago, happygunner77 said:

I've always thought about it if it was worth to fix the problem vs taking a mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

You should be able to do the math after and figure it out. You probably can figure roughly what your hit factor will be, which is the same as your points per second, and figure out how many seconds you trade for the 15 points for a mike.

But if you want to develop a sense for it, generally the higher the HF is the harder it gets to make trading time for points worth it.

 

So say like El Prez. Normally you can shoot it in 6 seconds. Say you light strike on the last shot and stop. 60 - 15 / 5.7 seconds = 7.89HF. At that pace, if you could make up the shot with an alpha, doing it under 1.9 seconds would make for a better hit factor. 60 / 7.6 = 7.89HF. If it takes you more than 1.9 seconds your hit factor starts going down again.

Edited February 10, 2019 by NickBlasta

[Brooke]

Ok I'm going to suggest something different.  Assumptions:

 

Virginia count

WSB says fire two and only two shots at each target

 

Situation as described occurs. That is, misfire on last shot. Shooter quits. (fails to do whatever is required to fire that last shot) 

 

Shooter was required to fire two shots at x targets for total of 2x, and only 2x,  shots.

 

A shot is defined as a bullet passing completely through the barrel. Therefore a squib or misfire is not a shot.

 

So shooter gets a mike plus a procedural for firing less than the required number of shots. A total of -20 points.

[NickBlasta]

22 minutes ago, Brooke said:

Ok I'm going to suggest something different.  Assumptions:

 

Virginia count

WSB says fire two and only two shots at each target

 

Situation as described occurs. That is, misfire on last shot. Shooter quits. (fails to do whatever is required to fire that last shot) 

 

Shooter was required to fire two shots at x targets for total of 2x, and only 2x,  shots.

 

A shot is defined as a bullet passing completely through the barrel. Therefore a squib or misfire is not a shot.

 

So shooter gets a mike plus a procedural for firing less than the required number of shots. A total of -20 points.

 

10.2.2.1, can't hit people with violating stage procedure for insufficient shots.

Edited February 10, 2019 by NickBlasta

[teros135]

6 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You should be able to do the math after and figure it out. You probably can figure roughly what your hit factor will be, which is the same as your points per second, and figure out how many seconds you trade for the 15 points for a mike.

But if you want to develop a sense for it, generally the higher the HF is the harder it gets to make trading time for points worth it.

 

So say like El Prez. Normally you can shoot it in 6 seconds. Say you light strike on the last shot and stop. 60 - 15 / 5.7 seconds = 7.89HF. At that pace, if you could make up the shot with an alpha, doing it under 1.9 seconds would make for a better hit factor. 60 / 7.6 = 7.89HF. If it takes you more than 1.9 seconds your hit factor starts going down again.

Nick is right about the math, and we should always consider that. 

 

And math-wise, what I'm thinking also is the effect of that 7.89 HF on your classification.  In Nick's example you were headed toward about a 10 HF (or, say, a 9.33, with 6 Cs at 6 seconds), and you're never going to get to that by making up a missed shot.   

[waktasz]

On 2/10/2019 at 5:14 AM, Brooke said:

Ok I'm going to suggest something different.  Assumptions:

 

Virginia count

WSB says fire two and only two shots at each target

 

Situation as described occurs. That is, misfire on last shot. Shooter quits. (fails to do whatever is required to fire that last shot) 

 

Shooter was required to fire two shots at x targets for total of 2x, and only 2x,  shots.

 

A shot is defined as a bullet passing completely through the barrel. Therefore a squib or misfire is not a shot.

 

So shooter gets a mike plus a procedural for firing less than the required number of shots. A total of -20 points.

 

I wish you would stop replying to rules threads

[wtturn]

20 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

I wish you would stop replying to rules threads

 

Scary if this person is an actual RO. 

 

 

[HCH]

On 2/10/2019 at 4:14 AM, Brooke said:

Ok I'm going to suggest something different.  Assumptions:

 

Virginia count

WSB says fire two and only two shots at each target

 

Situation as described occurs. That is, misfire on last shot. Shooter quits. (fails to do whatever is required to fire that last shot) 

 

Shooter was required to fire two shots at x targets for total of 2x, and only 2x,  shots.

 

A shot is defined as a bullet passing completely through the barrel. Therefore a squib or misfire is not a shot.

 

So shooter gets a mike plus a procedural for firing less than the required number of shots. A total of -20 points.

No.