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11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

You said earlier that splitting out minor was going to kill limited and now you are saying plenty of people want major...which is it?

 

If so many people want limited major then their gun will never be obsolete.

 

Limited is popular because you can mod guns and load them to capacity.  It is popular despite 40 S&W not because of it.

 

The name calling doesn't really help your already weak argument.  If there are enough manly men that need to compensate for their age/size/impotence with major power factor in limited then let's separate it, raise the power factor back up to 175/180, and all will be impressed by how awesome you are.  I am fine with letting all of the "gay millenial nancy boys" having a limited division where minor is competitive.  The sport could use more young people and broader appeal.

 

I think limited is popular because of major, not in spite of it. As a matter of fact limited is probably bigger than production, carry ops, and pcc combined. If it is not bigger than those  three it is close and you can mod guns in  all of them, but only one,  the biggest one, allows major. I think the obvious solution is to allow 40 major  in those divisions. Of course it would obsolete basically all the guns currently in those divisions as everyone flocked to major guns, but to be consistent, you  would be ok with that, right? 

Edited by RJH

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

I think limited is popular because of major, not in spite of it. As a matter of fact limited is probably bigger than production, carry ops, and pcc combined. If it is not bigger than those  three it is close and you can mod guns in  all of them, but only one,  the biggest one, allows major. I think the obvious solution is to allow 40 major  in those divisions. Of course it would obsolete basically all the guns currently in those divisions as everyone flocked to major guns, but to be consistent, you  would be ok with that, right? 

To be consistent, I have no issue adding a separate production major, a carry optics major, or a pcc major.  If they are separate then we will find out real quick what people want.  They are all just choices on the signup form, the computer makes it simple.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

To be consistent, I have no issue adding a separate production major, a carry optics major, or a pcc major.  If they are separate then we will find out real quick what people want.  They are all just choices on the signup form, the computer makes it simple.

 

 

 

 

Or people could just  pick what  division they want to shoot in now and buy the gun and caliber that fits best in that division. But, that may be too easy 

 

You strike me as a person that for some reason ended up with a 2011 in 9mm (three gun maybe) and now gets beat by someone with a police trade in glock 22 and wants everyone else to change  the rules to suit you

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32 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Or people could just  pick what  division they want to shoot in now and buy the gun and caliber that fits best in that division. But, that may be too easy 

 

You strike me as a person that for some reason ended up with a 2011 in 9mm (three gun maybe) and now gets beat by someone with a police trade in glock 22 and wants everyone else to change  the rules to suit you

You strike me as some older low IQ back woods redneck with an inferiority complex but no need to speculate.

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We maybe have 5 who shoot 40 major in limited. It certainly seems like there is a major shift to limited minor taking place. With the way USPSA likes to change rules for no reason I would not be surprised to see PF eliminated from limited.


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46 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

You strike me as some older low IQ back woods redneck with an inferiority complex but no need to speculate.

Other than the inferiority complex,  you pretty close. If anything i have a superiority complex, but generally it holds true so i don't worry about it too much.  So why did you buy a 2011 in 9mm?

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17 minutes ago, RJH said:

Other than the inferiority complex,  you pretty close. If anything i have a superiority complex, but generally it holds true so i don't worry about it too much.  So why did you buy a 2011 in 9mm?

 

I don't have a 2011 in 9mm, or any caliber for that matter.  I am the LEO trade in Glock 22 guy.  Actually it was a contract overrun since nobody wants them anymore, so it was not only cheap, but also new.

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10 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

I don't have a 2011 in 9mm, or any caliber for that matter.  I am the LEO trade in Glock 22 guy.  Actually it was a contract overrun since nobody wants them anymore, so it was not only cheap, but also new.

So why the push to change the the most popular division? I  would like production to allow major and full mags, but that division doesn't allow it so i shoot one that does and don't try to change a division that others enjoy shooting. Don't know why others can't  do the same

 

And sweet on the deal on the glock

Edited by RJH

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Just now, RJH said:

So why the push to change the the most popular division? I  would like production to allow major and full mags, but that division doesn't allow it so i shoot one that does and don't try to change a division that others enjoy shooting. Don't know why others can't  do the same

 

 

I have already listed the reasons.  

 

Splitting them doesn't change limited major...it is exactly the same...except that there wouldn't be a bunch of minor shooters to pad your position in the division results because of the scoring imbalance.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

I have already listed the reasons.  

 

Splitting them doesn't change limited major...it is exactly the same...except that there wouldn't be a bunch of minor shooters to pad your position in the division results because of the scoring imbalance.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

What reason did you list other that you don't want to load 40, but you want to tinker with your gun? So for what you want we should throw idk, what 10,000 or so, limited shooters that chose to follow the rules and pick the best gun for  them under the bus? I  mean when they screwed revolver over it only affected like 20 people, and instead of their numbers increasing they seemed to have dropped.

 

 

Splitting major/minor  fundamentally changes the division. No one pads anyone's score as each individual can choose the gun and caliber that they prefer, freedom of choice is a great thing. If  people choose a gun/caliber that puts  them at a disadvantage, either real or imagined, then that is on them. 

 

Your whole argument is no different than wanting to shoot open with a production gun, and then complaining that the competitors having  a dot and a comp only helps to pad their position in the division results, so so they should have to take the dot  and comp off to be equal to you. If you don't like limited then shoot one of the 7 other divisions. Look at the early rules or principals that Chuck posted on the first page of this thread,  it spells out that major power factor should be rewarded, and splitting divisions by power factor nullifies that reward, pretty simple right 

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I’ve been shooting  game since 84 and seen the effects of unintended consequences 

you ever wonder why the mag limit for open is 170mm

well the story goes when the para’s, P 9’s, caspians and sti’s Started showing up, to allow the old SS 45 comp to still be competitive there was a 15 round 45 mag that was 170mm long.

it wasn't long before someone cut 2 caspian mags in half and welded them back together to meet the 170mm rule and started the highcap arms race

 

if USPSA allowed major 9 in limited to please a few, they will piss off 99.9% of limited shooters because they have just made their 40 limited blasters obsolete 

 

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I may be one of the few people who likes 40 S&W in general and hopes it sticks around.

 

Since ballistics arguments are boring and generally inconclusive, I’ll just say that variety is the spice of life...

 

With that being said- it would make sense to let limited make MPF any way the math permits like open. 

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25 minutes ago, Paulie said:

 

 

With that being said- it would make sense to let limited make MPF any way the math permits like open. 

 

So are you  saying that it would make sense to make 95percent of obsolete, when that 95percent of shooters built their guns to the rules?

 

 Or are you saying that they should have done that way back when the limited division caliber for major power factor was decided upon? 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So are you  saying that it would make sense to make 95percent of obsolete, when that 95percent of shooters built their guns to the rules?

 

 Or are you saying that they should have done that way back when the limited division caliber for major power factor was decided upon? 

 

 

 

I hadn’t given much thought about how 9 major performs out of an uncompensated limited gun. Are you sure that 9 major would render 40 limited guns obsolete or might it be a slight disadvantage?

 

I’m a firm believer in the “sunk cost fallacy” in other aspects of life and in finance. If you need to make a change, then make it....in this case, within 5-8 years everyone will have a new gun and (maybe) a better sport. 

 

The most important thing is to increase participation and if we pull in hundreds or even thousands of 3-gunners, that’s a big win.

Edited by Paulie

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1 hour ago, Paulie said:

 

I hadn’t given much thought about how 9 major performs out of an uncompensated limited gun. Are you sure that 9 major would render 40 limited guns obsolete or might it be a slight disadvantage?

 

I’m a firm believer in the “sunk cost fallacy” in other aspects of life and in finance. If you need to make a change, then make it....in this case, within 5-8 years everyone will have a new gun and (maybe) a better sport. 

 

The most important thing is to increase participation and if we pull in hundreds or even thousands of 3-gunners, that’s a big win.

 

Who would purposely choose a gun with less capacity if they could make major and get more capacity?  And if 9 major out of an uncomped gun was too violent,  people would just go with 38 supercomp.

 

Skunk cost fallacy would be throwing away or screwing with the largest division,  with the hopes that three gunners would show up. Causing all the current clientele to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to hopefully gain some three gunners  sounds like a horrible idea.  It would be just as irrational to ask three gun organizations to start scoring based on power factor so more uspsa members showed up, and there are many more uspsa shooters (at least in my area than three gunners).  And i  shoot both, so i don't have an anti three gun issue

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On 2/5/2019 at 11:10 PM, bucky707 said:

I used to be able to pick up 40 brass all the time at my local range. Now I have a hard time finding it. Today I was at a local gun store and noticed the prices for 40sw guns were going down. The owner told me he can’t sell them anymore. Is 40 SW obsolete? Will those of us who shoot it in competition have a hard time finding brass in the future?

Well, i know a new Glock LE distributor placed an order this week and none of the 100 pistols were 40s.........

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Actually after a little consideration, a capacity limit in limited could solve this, allow a caliber change over by attrition and not make the thousands of limited shooters guns obsolete.  Since the max people seem to get in 40 mags is 21, set the max for major at 21 and allow minor to fully load. Then no ones guns are obsolete and any new guns could be built to the desired caliber. That proposal probably makes too much sense though 

Edited by RJH

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Good luck with enforcing that, it’s hard enough keeping track of the number of rounds fired in the 10 round divisions.

to drastically change the rules to accommodate a small group shooter is insane.

when I started the 45 was king, and everyone shot heads up, no divisions, you run what you brung

the first compguns showed up, and the old slab side was obsolete, to win you need to buy one of those gamer guns😳

the devel follower showed up, 8 rounds in a mag designed for 7, you mags ale obsolete, you need to buy new follower or mags😳

the 38 super compguns show up and the hold 2 more rounds than your brand new 8 round 45 compgun and it shoots flatter 😤

your new 38 super compgun shows up, and some damn Jedi Knight wannabe puts a red dot on his and wins the nationals🤬

so you send the gun back to the gunsmith to mount a red dot😀

then the highcap wide body guns appear, and you brand new 10 round red dotted super is obsolete 🤯

so what do you do, if you’re bill wilson you form IDPA🥺

 

whats the point to all this, if it an’t broke, don’t try to fix it

can you buy a edge in 9mm, yes

 can you use it in USPSA, yes

will you be competitive in limited, maybe, but more than likely not

Should USPSA change the rules to make you gun more competitive, and indoing so piss off 99.9% of limited shooter, not only no, but hell no

Stock gun class, the forerunner to limited was created to give the martial artist a place to play without affecting the compgun shooters

when the first supers showed up, some of the 45 guys stayed, some built supers, some said the hell with this and left 

the first highcaps, some of the 45 and super guys built new guns, some said the hell with this and leave

if you add major 9 to limited, how many guys with brand new 3-4K obsolete limited will say the hell with this and leave

 

 

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11 hours ago, Paulie said:

 

I hadn’t given much thought about how 9 major performs out of an uncompensated limited gun. Are you sure that 9 major would render 40 limited guns obsolete or might it be a slight disadvantage?

 

I’m a firm believer in the “sunk cost fallacy” in other aspects of life and in finance. If you need to make a change, then make it....in this case, within 5-8 years everyone will have a new gun and (maybe) a better sport. 

 

The most important thing is to increase participation and if we pull in hundreds or even thousands of 3-gunners, that’s a big win.

 

3 gunners don't use 9mm major so adding it to limited is not going to attract 3 gunners or any significant number of new shooters since most new shooters no not reload.

 

Splitting the division into major and minor leaving all of the other rules the same doesn't require anybody to buy a new gun or make anybody's gun obsolete.  The .40 you have before the split will be just as competitive against other .40s after the split.  

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1 hour ago, rishii said:

Good luck with enforcing that, it’s hard enough keeping track of the number of rounds fired in the 10 round divisions.

to drastically change the rules to accommodate a small group shooter is insane.

when I started the 45 was king, and everyone shot heads up, no divisions, you run what you brung

the first compguns showed up, and the old slab side was obsolete, to win you need to buy one of those gamer guns😳

the devel follower showed up, 8 rounds in a mag designed for 7, you mags ale obsolete, you need to buy new follower or mags😳

the 38 super compguns show up and the hold 2 more rounds than your brand new 8 round 45 compgun and it shoots flatter 😤

your new 38 super compgun shows up, and some damn Jedi Knight wannabe puts a red dot on his and wins the nationals🤬

so you send the gun back to the gunsmith to mount a red dot😀

then the highcap wide body guns appear, and you brand new 10 round red dotted super is obsolete 🤯

so what do you do, if you’re bill wilson you form IDPA🥺

 

whats the point to all this, if it an’t broke, don’t try to fix it

can you buy a edge in 9mm, yes

 can you use it in USPSA, yes

will you be competitive in limited, maybe, but more than likely not

Should USPSA change the rules to make you gun more competitive, and indoing so piss off 99.9% of limited shooter, not only no, but hell no

Stock gun class, the forerunner to limited was created to give the martial artist a place to play without affecting the compgun shooters

when the first supers showed up, some of the 45 guys stayed, some built supers, some said the hell with this and left 

the first highcaps, some of the 45 and super guys built new guns, some said the hell with this and leave

if you add major 9 to limited, how many guys with brand new 3-4K obsolete limited will say the hell with this and leave

 

 

This right here

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1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

3 gunners don't use 9mm major so adding it to limited is not going to attract 3 gunners or any significant number of new shooters since most new shooters no not reload.

 

Splitting the division into major and minor leaving all of the other rules the same doesn't require anybody to buy a new gun or make anybody's gun obsolete.  The .40 you have before the split will be just as competitive against other .40s after the split.  

 

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

3 gunners don't use 9mm major so adding it to limited is not going to attract 3 gunners or any significant number of new shooters since most new shooters no not reload.

 

Splitting the division into major and minor leaving all of the other rules the same doesn't require anybody to buy a new gun or make anybody's gun obsolete.  The .40 you have before the split will be just as competitive against other .40s after the split.  

No, just no, if they are too cheap to reload, this sport may not be for you 

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