Is 40 S+W obsolete?

[bucky707]

I used to be able to pick up 40 brass all the time at my local range. Now I have a hard time finding it. Today I was at a local gun store and noticed the prices for 40sw guns were going down. The owner told me he can’t sell them anymore. Is 40 SW obsolete? Will those of us who shoot it in competition have a hard time finding brass in the future?

Edited February 6, 2019 by bucky707

[36873687]

Same at my range an after a match. Maybe 3 people shooting 40

[Hi-Power Jack]

Probably all driven by police forces - they all went to .40, but

my son-in-law's force switched back to other calibers (9mm

and .45) since then.

 

If police switch over to 9mm or .45, there goes the brass supply    

[RJH]

It is cause of the fbi changing caliber, so now everyone else feels they have to as well. But, idk that i would call it obsolete,  just no longer the hotness

[Solvability]

No doubt, if you like the 40 it is a great time to buy a used gun.  Don't overlook the .357 Sig it is an excellent caliber and shoots flat at distance. All of the popular models of 40 and .357Sig  have conversion barrels to let you run 9mm for practice or competition. I plan to stockpile brass when I find it cheap - keep it dry and it won't go bad.

 

I wonder how long it will be before we get 38 Super and SC allowed major in Limited.

[RJH]

46 minutes ago, Solvability said:

 

 

I wonder how long it will be before we get 38 Super and SC allowed major in Limited.

 

Never

[Mcfoto]

I think it is on the wane. It's probably going to be like .38 super. Twenty years from now, those of us too cheap to buy new guns will be the only ones left. Last weekend I saw a .40 XDm on consignment at a local shop for $375. The guy behind the counter says all the .40 guys are trading in for 10mm.

[IronicTwitch]

My assumption is in 10 years we'll have 9major in limited.  Heavy bullets going fast.  Chrono stages will be important.  And we'll all be buying new limited blasters again.

[Jeff226]

The better answer is to split out limited minor into its own division and let .40 die if it is going to die

[RJH]

7 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

The better answer is to split out limited minor into its own division and let .40 die if it is going to die

 

This proposal would be a direct affront to DVC. Better question would be why jack with the largest division in the sport?

[Sarge]

On 2/6/2019 at 9:29 AM, RJH said:

 

Never

I tend to agree. 

[Jeff226]

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

This proposal would be a direct affront to DVC. Better question would be why jack with the largest division in the sport?

 

Production, PCC, and Carry Optics are already a "direct affront to DVC."  

 

It isn't jacking with anything, people can shoot 40 in limited major until they kick over dead.    

 

Best question is why waste the largest division in the sport propping up a cartridge that the market doesn't want?  Reloader sales?

 

Never say never.  

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Production, PCC, and Carry Optics are already a "direct affront to DVC."  

 

It isn't jacking with anything, people can shoot 40 in limited major until they kick over dead.    

 

Best question is why waste the largest division in the sport propping up a cartridge that the market doesn't want?  Reloader sales?

 

Never say never.  

If you want to shoot minor, there are the three divisions you listed plus revolver. Limited minor is pretty gay, and having a major/minor version of each division will only effectively kill the major version of each division. But you may be right, the way rules are swapped and divisions screwed with, the powers that be could definitely millennialify limited, and piss on limited, open, and DVC. You know, all the things started the sport (i know originally it was just open, but limited has been around a long time). And i don't know if at this point anyone would be real suprised 

[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

 (i know originally it was just open,  

 

Actually, it was all SS.

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Actually, it was all SS.

No, you could shoot a bhp

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

No, you could shoot a bhp

 

I did, starting in the late 80's   

 

But, when this all started, in the late 70's, it was all Colt .45's.

 

When we got into it with 9mm's, Cooper et. al. decided we had to shoot "MINOR".     

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

I did, starting in the late 80's   

 

But, when this all started, in the late 70's, it was all Colt .45's.

 

When we got into it with 9mm's, Cooper et. al. decided we had to shoot "MINOR".     

By the time uspsa was founded in 84 were bhps etc allowed?  This type of stuff is always interesting to me

[Hi-Power Jack]

I started a few years later - around 1988.  And, it was called IPSC back then.

 

I shot my BHP with 13 round mags, but had to shoot Minor instead of Major -

so I bought a Colt 80 1911 and got some 8-round mags and shot Major.

 

Not sure when they started allowing BHP's, but I thought it was back at the start.

 

But, the RO's hated my mag safety - couldn't pull the trigger after showing clear

without a mag in the gun.     

[ChuckS]

Some excerpts from the 1978 rules:

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Don't forget, back then there were only 1911's and BHP's (no one ever tried

a Luger or P-38).  There were attempts to make the BHP's shoot 9mm Major

which failed miserably.

 

I guess S&W had their Model 59 in 9mm, but don't remember ever seeing

one in competition.

 

And, the .40 S&W hadn't been born yet.

 

But, Jeff Cooper, et.al., were very insistent that a 9mm is NOT a .45 and

had to be penalized in the scoring.

 

Then, someone discovered you could load a .38 Super to Major,

and get two extra shots in the mag.

 

Then they discovered compensators ...

 

Then they discovered red dot sights ….

 

We've come a long way, baby  

 

I can't wait to see what's next   ( a 2021 with a

50 round mag of .22 Magnums loaded to Major ?)

Edited February 8, 2019 by Hi-Power Jack

[Powder Finger]

there were compensators before anyone seriously messed with 38 super.

[Jeff226]

12 hours ago, RJH said:

If you want to shoot minor, there are the three divisions you listed plus revolver. Limited minor is pretty gay, and having a major/minor version of each division will only effectively kill the major version of each division. But you may be right, the way rules are swapped and divisions screwed with, the powers that be could definitely millennialify limited, and piss on limited, open, and DVC. You know, all the things started the sport (i know originally it was just open, but limited has been around a long time). And i don't know if at this point anyone would be real suprised 

 

That is the point, if nobody wants the major version why keep it on life support?  9mm handguns with capacity greater than 10 rounds dominate the handgun market.  People that want to modify them, load them to capacity, and shoot factory ammo shouldn't be stuck in some division slanted in favor of those handloading powder puff rounds for a dying caliber.  You grow the sport one way and come across as an ignorant fudd the other way.

 

By the way, 40 S&W didn't start the sport, neither did 165 power factor, surprise.

 

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

That is the point, if nobody wants the major version why keep it on life support?  9mm handguns with capacity greater than 10 rounds dominate the handgun market.  People that want to modify them, load them to capacity, and shoot factory ammo shouldn't be stuck in some division slanted in favor of those handloading powder puff rounds for a dying caliber.  You grow the sport one way and come across as an ignorant fudd the other way.

 

By the way, 40 S&W didn't start the sport, neither did 165 power factor, surprise.

 

 

Well lets go play football,  but we will use baseballs cause they are cheaper.  

 

It seems that plenty of people want the major version of limited since it the biggest division.  Also no one is keeping anyone from shooting a caliber besides 40.

 

When people start uspsa they generally start with what they have and that is generally a gun that fits into production or single stack.  Then if they want to  shoot a different division they are probably buying a gun anyway, why not just buy one that fits the rules  instead of crying that they don't like the rules, oh wait, cause people like to whine till they  get their way. 

 

The reason limited is the biggest division is because of rules consistency. Making everyone in the divisions gun obsolete overnight is stupid. 

 

Also I know that 40 and 165 wasn't always the way but it has been for a long time, 20+ years or so. Consistency, see how it makes a division grow. However,  way back when, if anyone asked me, I would have preferred 44/45 to make major, just because then capacity vs power factor would have been a harder choice. 

 

Also major power factor being rewarded is a fundamental root of ipsc/uspsa, but millennial nancy boys will probably screw that up

Edited February 8, 2019 by RJH

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, Powder Finger said:

there were compensators before anyone seriously messed with 38 super.

 

True, but the comps on .45's didn't do much.     

 

Comps got really effective, in this sport, with hot .38 Super loads     

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

Well lets go play football,  but we will use baseballs cause they are cheaper.  

 

It seems that plenty of people want the major version of limited since it the biggest division.  Also no one is keeping anyone from shooting a caliber besides 40.

 

When people start uspsa they generally start with what they have and that is generally a gun that fits into production or single stack.  Then if they want to  shoot a different division they are probably buying a gun anyway, why not just buy one that fits the rules  instead of crying that they don't like the rules, oh wait, cause people like to whine till they  get their way. 

 

The reason limited is the biggest division is because of rules consistency. Making everyone in the divisions gun obsolete overnight is stupid. 

 

Also I know that 40 and 165 wasn't always the way but it has been for a long time, 20+ years or so. Consistency, see how it makes a division grow. However,  way back when, if anyone asked me, I would have preferred 44/45 to make major, just because then capacity vs power factor would have been a harder choice. 

 

Also major power factor being rewarded is a fundamental root of ipsc/uspsa, but millennial nancy boys will probably screw that up

 

You said earlier that splitting out minor was going to kill limited and now you are saying plenty of people want major...which is it?

 

If so many people want limited major then their gun will never be obsolete.

 

Limited is popular because you can mod guns and load them to capacity.  It is popular despite 40 S&W not because of it.

 

The name calling doesn't really help your already weak/confused argument.  If there are enough manly men that need to compensate for their age/size/impotence with major power factor in limited then let's separate it, raise the power factor back up to 175/180, and all will be impressed by how awesome you are.  I am fine with letting all of the "gay millenial nancy boys" have a limited division where minor is competitive.  The sport could use more young people and broader appeal.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jeff226