Rocky Mtn 3 Gun Proposals

[Religious Shooter]

That would be bad ass. Trooper class only match.

You could have it be like the SEAL documentaries on the Discovery Channel.

Have a bell in the middle of the range. If a shooter wanted to punk out you would make 'em go and ring the bell.

The RO's could be Marine Corp DI's. They could either kick dirt on you or dowse you with ice cold water while you shot prone.

Coolness.

[Zak Smith]

It's called: ITRC.

[MattBurkett]

Ohhh, ZAK nice one!

One thing that I thought about today that was fairly interesting:

If the Open Class gets removed, what happens when you get tossed out of Tac whatever for an illegal piece of gear? Where do you go then?

[Bronco]

I have never liked Tac Iron and Tac Scope being combined after the match is done. I'd rather shoot heads up against the same equipment and be done with it. I'm not going to win either way but at least I'd know where I stand in the class I shot in.

We have a match here that is run what ya brung. Its been won every year with a Tac scoped AR 15 in .223 with a bipod.

I put a lot of work into learning how to mono-pod an AR, so no bipods in tac class.

That being said RM3G is the best Tactical match I've been to and I plan to attend my fourth one next year. Thanks to all who made it possible! Keith

[RiggerJJ]

The trouble with the classes (divisions) we have now in IMGA, USPSA, and RM3G is they are too close to each other to the point of overlap. If you compare pistols only, Open, Limited, and Production you can easily see where I am coming from;

Open = Comps, optics, wizz bang goodies, test bed for kewl stuff.

Limited = highly modified, but limited in wizz bang-ness

Production = Take it outa the box and shoot it.

But our 3gun rifles have morphed into this God-awful beast that is complicating the 3gun world. Its just like the old days of USPSA when there were NO classes or divisions and everyone who was winning was shooting what is now an Open pistol. OF COURSE it is easier to shoot a stage with long shots and difficult positions with big scopes and bipods and comps/breaks. It is also easier to shoot a pistol stage with an Open pistol with longer mags, a red dot, and comp. So what we have now is (mostly) Open rifles for everyone, with the pistol and shotgun deciding what class you are in. WE NEED TO FIX THIS!

SIDE NOTE; I'm not going to get into the comparison of our game and the real world soldier. Until we put on body armor, a kevlar hat, and live in a sand dune for months at a time with bad guys TRYING TO KILL US we cannot compare it at all.

With this theory in mind, I would propose the following for 3gun;

*Open 3gun - Just like it is now, anything goes, remove the 170 mm pistol mag restriction and the 11 round shotgun restriction (USPSA).

*Tactical 3gun - (Limited) Highly modified rifle with limits, just like a Limited pistol. No comps/breaks, no scopes over 4x, no bipods, 30 rounds max. Pistol just like it is. Shotgun; again, highly modified with limits, after market sights, etc. Need to remove the barrel length restriction because it serves no purpose. Otherwise just like it is, 9 rounds max.

*Iron 3gun - (Production) outa the box rifle, no scopes, no comps/breaks, no mods, 20 rounds max. Pistol, just like a Production gun, 10 rounds max. Shotgun, an outa the box gun, no extended mag tubes. I believe most shotguns outa the box are 5 rounds?

*He Man, Heavy Metal, etc - just like it is, but a pump shotgun. To scope or not to scope the rifle? Depends on how this class grows. Crono all three to eliminate He Man Lite.

This gives us 4 clear-cut classes/divisions that a shooter can choose from based upon all his physcal limits, his money supply, self assested abilities, etc. Also, I never liked the lumping together of Tactical and Iron, seems to be a bit unfair for the iron shooters, which mostly are newer shooters.

In major matches I feel we shouldn't leave out classes like Open, because there are a lot of other-than-tacticical shooters that want to play. Roll around in the mud with a Open pistol/holster? Sure! But only if there are pistol targets to engage later in the stage. If the shooters know it will happen before coming to the match, they will do something about the speed holster problem or face the results.

Also I feel that mandating pistol wear in all stages is not a test of the shooter's skill. This stuff about running out of ammo and finishing the stage with the pistol; Why? You should have carried enough ammo or shot better. And as for the primary gun breaking and finishing the stage with a pistol, I won't be lobbing any 40cal pistol rounds at a 300 yard flash target, but doing so I don't think should relieve the shooter of an FTE penalty. And it poses the question; What if it is a pistol stage and my pistol breaks? Can I carry my slung rifle or shotgun and finish the stage with it?

Had a great time in Raton! I RO'd stage 8 and ALL the shooters were great! Many thanks to Blane, Michael, JP, the Wongs, the other ROs, and everyone else that ran the match, but mostly, thanks to you shooters that make 3gun what it is!

jj

[SgtNice]

My 2 cents... I have been competing for 6 years and I love iron sights. I have been very dissapointed to see irons lose favor to the point that there are only a handful at a big match. The best thing about heavy metal is that it evens the playing field and is less of an equipment race than "scoped tactical" which I think is a bastardized class. Why would you want a scope in a class that prides itself on difficulty? If you want to shoot scope there are enough other classes. Leave heavy metal the way it is, single stack, pump and big bore iron sights.

[SgtNice]

Ok, 3 cents... Why is there so much talk of making things easier: bipods, scopes, lighter loads, autos in He Man? Geez, you all sound like a bunch of open shooters. If you want easy shooting, try benchrest, you'll hit the target every time.

[Laramie]

Got to add my vote:

Combine scope and iron in Tactical Class?

Yes, optics may have advantage long range but lots of the rifle stuff was up close where iron is probably easier to use. I agree with others that iron sighted rifles are a thing of the past. Also, our squad did everything possible to give iron guys the best chance…shoot first on freshly painted targets, shoot when the light would be best, etc. We might want to recognize the top iron sight score but I’d put them in together.

Keep “Open”?

Definitely, it’s the cutting edge. However, I would not compromise match or stage design to allow accommodate Open. “Open” in this sport should require that the equipment survive the match… If the holster doesn’t work, don’t bring it.

Pistols on all the time?

Make it optional, unloaded, and allow transition if rifle/Shotgun dies on the stage…unless shotgun targets would be damaged by pistol bullet hits.

He-Man scopes?

Yes. Again, advantages and disadvantages long range vs. CQB. It has always been a mystery to me why perfect vision, at any age, makes you more of a “He-Man”.

Bipod in Tactical?

Yes. Why not? It can be a pain; when to and when not to use would be part of the game. A bipod is nothing magical or special…just a cheap piece of equip….how about use of shooting sticks if you want to carry em?

Sling in Tactical?

Yes. Required at all times, especially if you allow transition to pistol.

Limit Tactical to 30 rounds?

No. Let them carry 3 beta-mags if they want to….let the shooter do the tradeoff decisions.

Limits to shotgun barrels and load?

Just limit to 8+1 in tactical and He-man, period.

[Laramie]

Two other subjects to add:

I would like to see people encouraged to use "major" rifles in Tactical class. As an example, I would allow a single "C" or better hit to neutralize a paper target.

I would also like to see the top "Junior" and top "Lady" receive a very nice prize...assuming that there are enough in the particular category and class to make it a competition. We really need to encourage juniors...they are the future of our sport and none of us are gettin' younger. Likewise, we want more ladies to become involved in the shooting sports and they really do earn special recognition...competing with all us "he-men". I would award one of the top prizes, like one of those sweet Springfield XDs, to the top lady (again, assuming 10 or 15 ladies in the category/class).

Looking forward to next years RM3-Gun already. Great match guys/gals.

[Sestock]

I think the solution may be simpler than we we think. Some of you have kind of skirted around an idea that started to gel last night... How about this for divisions:

- Open (same basic rules and equipment "limitations" as we have now)

- Tactical Scoped (1 optic, maybe a 30-round mag limit if we're feeling fiesty, limit on comp size, etc)

- Tactical Iron (basically, the same as TS, but no scope)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds alot like the USPSA rules!

Wearing a chambered pistol all the time on stages seems like a safety issue to me. Why is it necessary to wear a pistol while you are crawling or moving over an obstacle? If you want real life join the Army/Marines.

[nm3gnr]

open: leave it alone

tactical: leave it alone

he man: make it like tactical

pitols on every stage ok, but no hot pistols.

I shoot tactical and don't plan on changing.

[kurtm]

" Iron sights are a thing of the past ", Then why do all these cool rifles with dots and bots and scopes seem to have back up iron sights? Why not just save the weight if they are so archaic in todays world?

The question we should be asking is what would be good for the sport, not what would be good for shooter XYZ. With this in mind I would like to proffer these thoughts.

Keep Iron sights, maybe even make it it's own division. If it was a stand alone division it migh attract a few more shooters, or it might not, but it would still be a viable venue. Make the prize table reflect the amount of people that sign up in it. (I personally don't mind shooting against scopes with Iron, but it seems that the scope guys don't like shooting against iron.) If Iron is discarded I think in a few years time this will become the RM3G tactical SCOPE match. If we are to award excellence, lets not drop one of the divisions that truely takes excellence. As for low attendence in this class I would like to remind people that when He-Man started it was 8 competitors.

Bipods were finally allowed at SOF because a few Military weapons had them built in. In general I haven't seen a bunch of them built into the guns we were using at RM3G, and haven't seen many pictured in military service. That doesn't say that they are not utile, it just says that they are cubersome and unwieldly in general and we have better uses of forend space than bolting on a 2 lb Harris bipod. I think they are fine in OPEN but in general use I feel they should be left behind.

Optics in He-Man? I say yes because it will grow the class, the more shooters we have the better off we are. I did like the statement that said "why is good eye sight more he-manly?". Maybe someone will come up with a good way to finally put a scope on an M1A or FAL. All to the good

Shotguns? I agree with this rule 100% If it hold 9 it,s good to go. I remember pictures from Borneo of the SAS and one of them had about a 26" Browning auto-5 out on patrol. The time of barrel restrictions is over; once again more shooters.

Sling all the time, just doesn't make sense, as the area you are working in mandates this. I would hate to have a sling attached in a real heavy jungle, just as I would hate to be without one in the wide open. Let stage design dictate if a sling is needed.

Pistols all the time? Personally I would like to see this, but enough of my fellow shooters seem to have an aversion to such practice, I would have to say no. I am finding that carring a hot pistol is just not for everyone, and scares quite a few shooters. Also the constraints of clearing another gun at the end of a stage and making one hot at the begining will take a bit of extra time, and there is a real chance of an RO missing the unload of the pistol. Happened to me twice at SOF, no big deal but the NRA center wouldn't like it one little bit, and it would be hard to DQ a guy for that. KURT MILLER

[ccur]

Amen, Kurt...pass the biscuits!! great ideas and they make a lot of sense!! I don't mind wearing a pistol all the time...I would prefer it to not be loaded, however....

Cheryl

[gl]

That would be bad ass.  Trooper class only match.

You could have it be like the SEAL documentaries on the Discovery Channel.

Have a bell in the middle of the range.  If a shooter wanted to punk out you would make 'em go and ring the bell. 

The RO's could be Marine Corp DI's.  They could either kick dirt on you or dowse you with ice cold water while you shot prone. 

Coolness. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I will volunteer to be the DI...........I mean RO. You left out the verbal abuse and evil tricks to f--- with your mind portion of the 'RO' obligation. Please let me....

LOL!

Guy Hawkins

[CraigS.]

After reading rmfield's post below it appears that they are thinking about

recreating the old SOF matches .

What are your thoughts on this idea?

Does this need to be a true tactical match?

IMHO if its not broke don't fix it !

This is hands down the best 3-gun match !

But please recognise the top iron sight shooters.

Craig

(QUOTE FROM RMFIELD'S POST)

It is important to note that this is a list of things that we are thinking about and that the reason Blane put it out there was to stir up your input. Many of these potential rule changes are old SOF traditions. We appreciate your interest thus far and welcome more thoughts and ideas. You can send us your thoughts at jprm3g@aol.com if the BE forum is not where you want to express yourself.

RM3G

[MattBurkett]

I think the one thing that most people forget about trooper class is that it is even more Open than Open class! Anything goes as long as you carry it! Multiple top ends for different kinds of stages. Different barrels for the shotgun. You can change anything and do anything. Talk about an equipment race!!!

[Wakal]

Equipment race, perhaps, but not a foot race

A

[cking]

It is pretty close as is. But.....

I like to see Heavy metal, as class by itself with limited, open, & tactical. Or should we just say major power factor.

Scoring to me is problem. To make Heavy metal competitive I think the A B C D scoring value needs to change between major and minor PF's.

[MP5_guy]

It is pretty close as is. But.....

I like to see Heavy metal, as class by itself with limited, open, & tactical. Or should we just say major power factor.

Scoring to me is problem. To make Heavy metal competitive I think the A B C D scoring value needs to change between major and minor PF's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I personally don't see a need for Heavy Metal (my preferred name for this division) *if* we start to adjust scoring values on targets in accordance with power factor. To me that is the way to go. I would love to shoot a .30 cal rifle in Open, but with the current scoring methods, it would be a handicap -- if I'm shooting major PF, I want to be scored major PF. Treat it like how a shotgun shooting slugs is treated -- a hit anywhere on paper is considered to have neutrailized the target.

I find the current He-Man/Heavy Metal equipment requirements a bit of a pain. I would have to buy another pistol and a shotgun to play. Not that there is anything wrong with buying more firearms... But it would be nice to be able to use some of what I already have.

[MKuhn]

The intent of He-man or what ever, is what it is. Just like every other class/ division it is a separation of different tastes and even limitations, keep in mind that this is a game not the real world.

If you want to or have to shoot through a scope you have two other options, if you desire to shoot an auto loading shotgun you have two other options.

The thought of tailoring the rules to suit everybody’s desires may be a little unrealistic. It kind of appears that some may be shooting for something other than the love of the sport.

There are shooters who like it so much they save their money, come to the matches, don’t bitch, never trophy and walk the table last!

[mike.45]

Hi Mel, welcome to the forums !

[kurtm]

MajorMel has a great point!! We already have a lot of choices! KURT

[TonyH]

MajorMel has a great point!! We already have a lot of choices! KURT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mel has said it best!!!!

[Larry White]

I dont shoot open, iron or he man and really dont want to mess with somebody else sand box. I shoot tactical scope and like my gear just like it is. Lets leave well enough alone. If a divisions numbers fall to a level that it cant be supported it should be up to the MD to drop it.------Larry

[Scout454]

FYI, here is the "official list" of rule changes for the 2006 RM3G that we are pondering, some more seriously than others;

I shot the RM3g for the first time this year. It's the best match I've ever been to and I sincerely hope to come back - every year.

- Eliminate Open Class. - Please keep Open. At 58, my eyes don't focus fast enough for irons any more. I shoot a Docter sighted STi that fits fine in a BladeTech (the comp does stick out an inch). I shoot 2 tactical matches a month and feel confident that it'll stay in the holster and stay safe.

- Allow bi-bods on Tactical and He-Man rifles. Why not?

- Require power factor or bullet weight minimums for He-Man (140 grain rifle and 200 (or 230) grain pistol). Require this for all classes.

- Require handgun to be worn on all stages. Good. And as others have suggested, carry it hot on all stages for backup. - Require slings on rifles. What kind/type of sling? A single point? Multipoint? Simple shoulder sling? Which?